Teachers that make no scientists (but make Polish people angry)

A long time ago I intended to write a post about why Polish scientists speak American English. Aleksander Wolszczan, the astronomer, and his likes.

It would be a post coarse in its simplicity. Money rules, blah, Poland pays, blah, for what foreigners take away, blah blah, brain drains worse than acid rains, blah blah, period”.

So instead I decided to wait for Poland to grow rich enough to buy some American brainwaves back. But all we have got is new Starbucks and new Star Wars. [Foreign stars came to this blog free, so it does not count as any brain back-drain.] Poland also failed to capture Switzerland and grab the Large Hadron Collider. Though nobody knows how LHC will pay off, everybody knows it will, eventually. LHC is said to be just as important as Copernicus’ revolution.

Copernicus was German – but it’s not his nationality that counts, it’s the source of taxation. It seems Poland was capable of making economic use of foreign Scientists ages ago — but not nowadays.

I read in the latest NF — there’s science (of analysis) and there’s Science (of synthesis). The big-S Scientists, the elite, the Noble-getters who give reasons for new industries to emerge with profits, they don’t work for Poland. The small-s scientists analyze stupidities: “Chickens can have erection once bombed by gay laughter“. That sort of science — which seems like something Polish analyses could fit in. Mind, Poland never had scientists who make local inventions that earn global fortune.

When my memory got searching for some examples of education, I recalled Aleksandra Lojek-Magdziarz. Fluent in so-many so-what languages. Handling Oriental stuff no one really cares about. Living in-/beside the world that thinks you highbrowed if you happen to know Iran is not an Arabic country. (Or is it?) Past the years to come, what Brits will wrinkle their foreheads, should their small talk divert to AL-M for any yet unobvious reason: “You mean the gal that used to write for the Grauniad?” — I guess remembering AL-M for her Grauniad thing would be as fair as pondering “John Cleese?…You mean that guy from that weird commercial for a bank in…was it Romania?”

Then I vaguely recall the Polish piano guy. — Can you?
No, I don’t mean Chopin — who’s working for the French capital.

No, I don’t mean the Keitel man in the movie about a prostitute selling herself for piano keys.
No, I don’t mean David Helfgott playing at Rach 3 speed – he’s Australian.
I mean that Glaswegian janitor, whose unremembered name I had to dig out there.

Then movie classics — Paweł, Jerzy and Zbigniew. One being a licensed literature professor. All educated enough to renovate a house under the Tuscan sun.
And then many other Poles (whose list I will spare for some other time).


Polish education, when not gone to waste, hastens abroad — but starts walking with the Polish teachers.

Did you know? –- Polish teaching load is 18 school-hours a week. Which means Polish teachers work for 54 round-the-clock hours a month (compared to average Pole’s 160). When they are at work, that is. Save Saturdays and Sundays, Polish teachers enjoy vacations: a summer bimonthly, a winter biweekly, a week in April, some 10 days round Hogmanay, annual Education day, a generous handful of feasts and other reasons to shirk just working. Heck, they can take a year (!) off, to revitalize their health, so they say. (But how could they say anything, when their larynxes and pharynxes are in ruins, so they say?) And when pupils have to buy books, teacher get their copies free. And when pupils pay to go for a school trip, teachers deign to get sponsored. And they get chocolates and flowers in public. And more expensive bribes in secrecy. In addition, they are regularly paid a lot. By the state, the safest payer. Employed by the state, the safest employer. And they score big extras for private lessons, net and untaxed. And at schools, they can just order their class to read some book and then learn it by heart. Or play ball. Or pray bull. If they don’t know how to download some tests from the net, they write ones themselves, but just once in their lifetime — then they simply reuse the stuff. And, hear! hear!, they do keep moaning about how hard it is to be a teacher. And that they have to retire sooner than anymany else.

I guess that’s it. No science’s muscles can be built around that kind of lazybones.

– – – – –

Warning: there is more about teachers.

Advertisements
Tagged , , , , , , , , , , , ,

73 thoughts on “Teachers that make no scientists (but make Polish people angry)

  1. guest says:

    A scientist needs money and (ethic, political) freedom.

    For example the Prussian Institute for Infectious Diseases spent millions of Deutschmarks, because Germany was a colonial state and desperately needed something against exotic diseases.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Koch

    At that time Poland was occupied by Prussia and Polish scietists had to fight for freedom not against bacteria ;)

    btw: You should get a nobel price if you are 100% sure that Copernicus was a German.

  2. […] perversion, Polish, Polish culture, Polish Lies, Polish life, Polish thinking Teachers that make no scientists (but make Polish people angry) What was the latest genuinely Polish invention? Fight instead of work? (Poles get dangerously […]

  3. some dude says:

    > Did you know? –- Polish teaching load is 18 school-hours a week.

    WRONG. What about their housework? Preparing lesson plans? Checking tests? And what about wychowawstwo? Conferences. Clubs. Preparing kids for knowledge tests.

    > Save Saturdays and Sundays, Polish teachers enjoy vacations: a summer bimonthly,

    WRONG. A lot of teachers are fired in June and hired just before September. Yeah, nice vacations. And they do work on Saturdays.

    > a winter biweekly, a week in April, some 10 days round Hogmanay,

    Granted, I can’t argue with that.

    > annual Education day, a generous handful of feasts

    Education day happens to be a working day.

    > Heck, they can take a year (!) off, to revitalize their health, so they say. (But how could they say anything, when their larynxes and pharynxes are in ruins, so they say?)

    Hahaha, yeah, so funny. Teachers don’t work, they just talk.

    > And when pupils have to buy books, teacher get their copies free.

    WRONG AGAIN. So very, very wrong. The only book a teacher gets free is the syllabus, which can be very different from recommended books.

    > And when pupils pay to go for a school trip, teachers deign to get sponsored.

    Oh really?

    > And they get chocolates and flowers in public.

    Oh me, oh my. Surely they don’t deserve it.

    > And more expensive bribes in secrecy. In addition, they are regularly paid a lot. By the state, the safest payer. Employed by the state, the safest employer.

    You know, I seem to remember some discussions about Polish Police. That is, they take bribes because they are underpaid. Odd. And no. 700 zlotys per month is not ‘a lot’.

    > And they score big extras for private lessons, net and untaxed.

    Yeah, big extras. Sure. I won’t argue with that. I could even add that some teachers do not bother teaching in classroom, preferring to teach in their own flat, for ten times the price.

    > And at schools, they can just order their class to read some book and then learn it by heart. Or play ball. Or pray bull.

    No. No, they can’t. Students can object, either by old-fashioned polish democratic decision (i.e. skipping classes) or simply by telling their parents.

    > If they don’t know how to download some tests from the net, they write ones themselves, but just once in their lifetime — then they simply reuse the stuff.

    Nope. Even if the Internet wasn’t invented, the inter-class gossip certainly is.

    > And, hear! hear!, they do keep moaning about how hard it is to be a teacher. And that they have to retire sooner than anymany else.

    Because working with twenty-five retarded bastards of a prostitute and a lost troop of Red Army is a wonderful job to satisfy anyone.

  4. Pawel says:

    Copernicus was German? How very dare you! ;D

  5. karol says:

    I can’t agree with the part that talks about teachers and I agree with some_dude. Right now I’m on a month’s school teaching practitioning program in high school (part of grad school) and, though I’m not working full time, looking at my host teacher, I can see that it’s well beyond 18 hours a week. Count at least 6 hours at the school – there’s so much more stuff that has to be done that is not teaching, add 6 more at home when correcting tests, making new ones (this is very hard work) and preparing lessons (this is the kind of task that’s never finished – a perfect script is out of reach).

  6. darthsida says:

    => Paweł
    Indeed, there is an issue: was Copernicus German? — Some say he was Prussian German, some say he was Silesian German, I simply say he was German German. Albeit his nationality does not matter.

  7. darthsida says:

    => Karol
    Exactly with what part can’t you agree? The part about teachers says:
    Teachers’ work has not resulted so far in Poland-based scientists making money-breeding inventions that don’t flee abroad.

    It would seem more reasonable for a teacher to say: “We work little. That’s why can’t shape any scientist material properly.” But if you say that teachers work long, it simply means: “Teachers work long to the end of failing.”

  8. darthsida says:

    => Guest
    All a scientist needs a brain and proper education / guidance.

  9. guest says:

    => Guest
    All a scientist needs a brain and proper education / guidance.

    ———-

    a big NO.

  10. darthsida says:

    => Some dude
    Why would you insist on spreading false memes? The way I see it:

    1. Housework? If teachers prefer to work at home than at school, it’s their choice.

    2. Wychowawstwo? What is the ratio Teachers who run classes -:- Teachers who don’t, pray? Plus, those who run classes – get perked for it.

    3. Multiple choice tests require only a template or two. — Or how would you say a PE teacher prepares their test? — Maybe academic teacher have to work more with tests, but then they have another month (!) of paid leave extra.

    4. A fully paid 1-year-long leave to rescue one’s health is an outrage. If throat problems can be a job-relevant problem, private medical insurance should be taken out.

    5. Education day, Oct 14, is a working day? You mean, teachers have to go to school to get chocolates and flowers, or what?

    6. True, 700 zloty per month is not a lot. But teachers earn, what, 10 x more? [The average monthly pay of a, let’s say, certified [mianowany] teacher is some 2.000 zł [net] for 18+2 hours overtime. 2000 zł for 80 hours a month. It is 25 zł cash in hand per 45 minutes, or 33 zł per full hour. Given all those days / weeks / months / year off, I’d say it’s more like 50-100 zł per hour. And then there are private lessons.

    7. “twenty-five retarded bastards of a prostitute and a lost troop of Red Army is a wonderful” way to describe the juvenile swarm of Polish schools.
    As long as supply of teachers is greater than demand for them, I say: cut the pay down, add them some real work. The taxpayer won’t get more scientists that way, but won’t have to spend fortune on idlers.

  11. darthsida says:

    Guest,
    a big NO? They don’t need a brain? Before you venture forth, say — was this Indian a scientist?

  12. Jubal says:

    Oh, a typical darthsida rant, where even darthsida does not know exactly, what he’s writing about and why actually is he doing that.

    Did you know, that you can actually *think* before you write? Is it really *that* hard?

  13. guest says:

    Yes, sometmes darthsida mutates into DADAsida…

  14. Pawel says:

    I was laughing, but seriously…

    Copernicus lived before the modern concept of nationality. Saying he was German is at least questionable. Putting the ethicity aside, as we cannot know it – I’m sure if had a passport it would be a Polish passport. And that is why:
    His father was from Nysa in Silesia, and was a Krakow merchant. Copernicus was born and lived for a long time in Royal Prussia that was part of Poland… His mother belonged to a family of Torun that fought against the Teutonic order (i.e. Germans). Copernicus himself was also anti-Teutonic, as he once personally wrote a letter to the Polish king to ask for his assistance for Royal Prussia againt the Teutonic order. Royal Prussia – as the name says was Polish king’s fiefdom.
    Copernicus himself was engaged in Polish relations quite a bit, he was present at the coronation and he participated in Polish Sejm…

    It could be a good idea to put an asterisk with corretion in your post ;)

  15. karol says:

    The problem is not bad teachers. In my opinion, polish teachers are heroes. Having to deal with immense amounts of stress, large numbers of students, throat fatigue with a miserable pay, it resembles charity rather than work.

    The problem is funding schools and funding science. A Polish kid who wants to be a scientist will be considered a daydreamer and it will be kicked out of his or her mind by their parents. Laying tiles in bathrooms pays twofold as working as an academic scientist in any area.

    A deeper problem lies in treatment of science in high school. Teachers, especially science teachers, struggle to make the children learn anything, but what can be done if the students have only one science class a week? This is barely enought to get their attention, talk about teaching them something.

    At this moment, teachers have too many students to handle – easily exceeding 150 at a time – the Dunbar’s number of people you can focus on. Schools should hire more teachers and teachers should teach only three to four classes at a time, each three to four hours a week. The teacher should spend the rest of the day, up ’til 5 pm, to help out those who fall behind, to talk to each student, to notice each one’s individualities. Only then there can be a positive selection of talented individuals, who, by now, go unnoticed because they simply aren’t extravertive enough to barge through the louder part of the class.

    This will not happen in predictable future. And that’s very sad.

  16. karol says:

    I forgot to add. Teachers should earn as much as between 4000 and 6000 złoty a month. That’s right. Virtually noone in their sanity is crazy enough to actually start teaching while being talented and/or educated enough to do something more profitable. It’s really very sad to see so no to very few university physics graduates or PhD’s teach in school. By raising pay threefold serious competition could be introduced and teachers would be finally satisfied with their work. The feeling they get now is that they rip their guts out doing their hard work while being buttfucked by everyone around, be they the Ministry of Education, parents or students themselves.

    A good employee is a well-motivated one. Education is so damn important that we should start paying teachers 100 zł per hour and not look back.

  17. michael farris says:

    We can now add ‘teachers’ to the long list of things Darthsida hates or looks down on in Poland.
    Will we ever be able to start a list of things Darthsida likes (or at least doesnt’ hate or look down on)?

  18. darthsida says:

    => Guest
    I’m not a dadaist — I don’t negate the existing laws of beauty, for instance. I may negate teachers and their trade unions — but for sake’s sake they have absolutely nothing in common with beauty! — So, instead of accusing me of dadaism, you could have answered my question, our ping-pong could start resembling a discussion.

  19. darthsida says:

    => Jubal
    This is not a rant. I do hope. My utterance may be (taken as) spiteful and stupid _but_ they are not given in an uncontrolled way.
    Next time you make a personal comment instead of an ad-rem, indulge me to at least make your comment more infuriating. Hint: call me “a teacher”.

  20. darthsida says:

    => Paweł
    I think a cognate issue came up when we had a question of nationalities / ethnicties covered here. To me, it does not matter whether Copernicus was an Eskimo or not. He was benefitial to the Polish taxpayer, I imagine.

    btw, should London be a Polish fiefdom right now, I woud not call Londonders Polish on that account.

  21. darthsida says:

    => Michael
    Exactly how my alleged negative feelings could collide with truth (here hinted by some numbers / statistics) — this you carefully chose not to explain. I am sure it is an attitude I hate. (Btw, under Socialism, teachers would speak whom I certainly hate (the Nazis) or love (USSR) and who to look down upon (private capital, for one). you are / could make a typical teacher.)

  22. darthsida says:

    => Karol, first of all thanks for you comment. We disagree but at least we talk.

    TEACHERS

    I don’t agree that Polish teachers are heroes. They just do their job. If they want the job more than the job wants them (except for foreign language teachers, perhaps) — I can’t see any reason why they should earn more. Supply exceeding demand, they should earn less.
    Or earn the same, just work more.

    Please care to read a post on my private blog (I wrote more about teachers elsewhere only not to make a post here too long again.)
    One central ‘mystery’ that stays without loud answers is: Why won’t teachers insist on introduction of 40-hour working week, within which they would cover 18 obligatory lessons, tests, coneferences, meetings, courses and all?

    There are three possible answers:
    — they work less than 40 hours a week
    — they work 40 hrs / week or even more (which case they are stupid not to show it to the world)
    — _some_ of them work ca 40 hrs a week, _some_ don’t. Those who do are too cowardly to break some stupid interschool solidarity and demand more pay. Especially, when those who don’t are a majority.

    SCIENTISTS

    You write: “A Polish kid who wants to be a scientist will be considered a daydreamer and it will be kicked out of his or her mind by their parents.” Why would you say so? Probably you mean something else than I do by “scientist”.

    If you are a scientist — you can get in / start project(s) that the market / indsutry will indirectly or directly turn into cash. When scientists get some of this cash, they don’t have to look for tile-laying or dish-washing vacancies abroad.

  23. guest says:

    If you are a scientist — you can get in / start project(s) that the market / indsutry will indirectly or directly turn into cash. When scientists get some of this cash, they don’t have to look for tile-laying or dish-washing vacancies abroad.

    ———————————–

    Sorry darthsida, but that is totally naive what you write.

    To “start a project” you need MONEY and FREEDOM (for example stem cell research).

    The Pope, the Kings, the Medici family, the lockheed martin Corporation, the German Kaiser and many, many others are the fundament of modern science. Without them all the Nobel prices and beautyful renaissance art would not be possible.

    That’s why it is a complete BS if you complain about “unproductive” Polish scientists in Poland.

    If Polish scientists and engineers have enough money and freedom, they are as productive as other nations.

    Just three examples. If you want i can give you 300 or 3000.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Modjeski

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Malinowski

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacy_Domeyko

  24. guest says:

    darthsida,

    You say “To me, it does not matter whether Copernicus was an Eskimo or not.”

    But the question is how do you know that Copernicus was 100% a German and not an Eskimo or a Pole ? and why do you repeat it all the time that he was a German ?

    Sorry but to me it is just a mixture of ignorance and arrogance, if you say “I KNOW 100%…and then start your rant about polish lost wars, lazy scientists, non existent artists and all the other BS.

  25. darthsida says:

    Guest,

    Giving examples is counterproductive because they would be valid only if they allowed formulating a general principle. It is a principle we should seek, not examples. In principle, the residents of Poland (whose nationalities vary / varied) had made big inventions, no doubt. And there is another principle: they could not sell their inventions.
    Further, I see a connection with school education: students may be taught things but not how to turn their knowledge into gold, so to speak.

    You say it takes ‘money’ and ‘freedom’ to become a scientist. I don’t know what you mean by ‘freedom’ but I know what ‘money’ is. How come the residents of Poland did not have money to do inventions but they did have money to make insurrections? Or how come they did not invent money in first place?

    There is a similar moaning — about movies: “oh Polish cinema, if only it had money, we’d beat Hollywood’s butt, and Bollywood’s to boot, artisitically, statistically and commercially”. Say, why all those Hollywoods have money and we do not? Is it not true that USA are a drastically few centuries old (and they had wars to wage, too)?

    Warner Bros were coming from Poland, sources say — but so what? Their heritage increases the GDP of America, not of Poland. My point here is firmly a-nationalist. I am (taxpayerly) glad Copernicus was from this land, I am not (taxpayerly) glad Warner Bros. fled over the seas. It does nowise comfort me that the Warners could be Polish — as it does not bother me that Copernicus could be Eskimo.

    PS And I call Kopernik a German because it seems closest to the truth that way.

  26. karol says:

    darthsida, you obviously have never had the chance to teach a class. I can’t see why teachers should receive less pay. Right now they’re on the edge. If they give paid lessons after school, that’s because they’re forced to. It shouldn’t be like that, they should be focused on school.

    The problem isn’t that teachers work too little or earn too much. I wonder who taught you that you should force people to work harder by lowering their pay or raising hours. The teacher should have the financial and temporal freedom to plan his work according to himself. Teaching is mentally and physically exhausting. They should simply not have to worry about making a living. Plus, the pay should be above the average – as should be the quality of their work. There is a direct correlation – the higher the pay, the higher the employment standards and competition. You are worried that they slack off instead of spending the rest of the day preparing classes? Well, there are all sorts of ways of making sure that the teacher is doing their job, the first being external test scores. I assure you, if the teacher isn’t doing a very good job, the scores will be bad.

    I am wholeheartedly with the teachers. But everyone needs to understand that when pays go up, the competition gets stronger and some people may need to go. With more money, we should demand better teachers. That’s it.

  27. guest says:

    I mean by “freedom” that for example Stem Cell Research and (Human) Cloning is forbidden in catholic Poland and (not sure100%) the EU.

    I mean by “freedom” that since 1884 it was forbidden to study in Prussian/Russian Poland for people like Marie Curie.

    I mean by “freedom” that in PRL it was impossible for scientists to “turn their knowledge into gold” because all scientists lived behind an iron curtain in a directed economy/(and science) system.

  28. guest says:

    “How come the residents of Poland did not have money to do inventions but they did have money to make insurrections?”
    —————————————————————————-
    ha, ha

    you are crazy darthsida, just crazy.

    Yea, why did the black slaves not invest some money and do some inventions. Why did they spent all the energy on stupid things like insurrections and fighting for freedom. ? LOL

  29. darthsida says:

    Karol

    You’re missing my point. There are more teachers than needed. And you say: “let’s pay them more”? How bizarre, I assume Mr Balcerowicz would say to you.

    Yes, I met worried teachers of geography, arts, music, biology, chemistry — all wondering: “What shall we do? There are fewer kids than before, there’s no baby boom in progress, not in Poland anyway. Will there be kids enough to fill our 18-hours load up or will we be found redundant?” They are in fear — that is why they seek refuge in earlier retirement for instance.

    I did not hear such words from 1) teachers of Polish (there have lessons enough), 2) priests (with their own rights), 3) teachers of English, 4) IT teachers [3 and 4 could manage on the market outisde schools].

    And the larger picture?

    — The country is poor. Education in general secondary schools is significantly cheaper than vocational education. That is why the state encourages going to lyceum and then going to study and then going to worry yourself what to do with your master’s degree the market does not seem to care about.

    — The country is poor. That is whence the idea of starting the compulsory education a year earlier (from everykid’s 5th year of life): how to economise on schools and kindergartens. (I refer you to Przekrój of Sept 4 for anti-governmental details).

    — The country is poor. That is why the state needs teachers to work more for less. That’s why the govt insists on larger teaching load (‘pensum’). That is why proper headlines about thoise damned teachers are born (see my private blog’s entry for details). It’s divide-and-rule method, let’s have popular anger on teachers. It kinda worked with doctors or miners before.

    However, the point here is not: what should teachers do to be paid more. (The answer is: they should quit being teachers.) The point is they fail to form any profitable scientist material.

  30. guest says:

    Say, why all those Hollywoods have money and we do not?

    ————————————————————————————

    ha, ha

    because Poland did not exist when Hollywood became famous. If you “sit in prison” you have no chance to make money, even if you are talented.

  31. guest says:

    Say, why all those Hollywoods have money and we do not?

    ————————————————————————————

    ha, ha

    because if you “sit in prison” you have no chance to make money, even if you are talented.

  32. guest says:

    double post,sorry

  33. darthsida says:

    Guest

    Can’t say I recall any significant black slave insurrection, neither in Poland nor in USA. — Poles such as Wokulski of Prus’ Lalka were subjects of a Russian tzar but they were not banned from business-making. If you dare to check who’s making inventions today, you’ll see squads of people that may include Black people. But there hardly are Polish squads.

    And have you noticed the times they are a’changing? We have the internet. Where are any Polish inventions similar to Google? Why can we have copies only (Nasza klasa => Facebook, Allegro => eBay etc.) Then, there are RL services, RL products — why not think out something that the whole world will want? Because of lack of money? You know how it works otherwheres? “Come with an idea [and a business plan] and we’ll lend you money to implement it”.

    PS Of course it is not impossible that there is some Ugly Global Capital that buys out every reasonable idea as soon as it comes out, to tempt promising Polish scientists to abandon Poland and work for UGC. If we’d agree on this picture, why discuss anything? We’d be slaves already.

  34. karol says:

    The country is not poor. Where have you come up with that? Even if it were, education is one place we can’t touch to save money. Still, teachers live in poverty. Save the wives of well-earning men. You have to be either nuts or be seriously ideallistic (which doesn’t differ a lot from being nuts) to deliberately become a teacher.

    You see, teaching is that kind of work that’s never finished. And it means that even apparently redundant teachers can get more work than they want. It’s all about time and human resources management. For instance, students shouldn’t pay for extra lessons after school, they should receive them at school and it should be obligatory. The teacher should spend eight hours at school a day, giving extra lessons to exceling and lagging students, and should be paid 5000 zł. Of course, they should be evaluated, tested and spectated, the quality standards need to be maintained. But, I’ll stress that, even teaching as many as 30 students, a teacher can do more than 30 hours a week, consulting each student for an hour. This would be enforced, but this should happen.

    Remember that teaching is an investment. If a teacher teaches only 30 students, and teaches them well, that’s 30 more skilled, properly directed and confident members of the society – and efficient workers, engineers, scientists, etc.

    This would of course imply a revolution, which won’t happen soon. (Probably at all.) Short term actions that are effective in long term are very difficult. And lowering salaries or extending hours isn’t going to work as you would wish.

  35. Piotr says:

    Copernicus was German!?!??!?!

  36. Michael Farris says:

    “you are / could make a typical teacher”

    Oooh, I make dathsida’s list too!

    Anyway, others have made most of the points I would. I’ll just add:

    1. Not everything thrives best when treated as a market.

    2. The test of an educational system is not the appearance of isolated geniuses but overall levels of education in the population.

    3. The countries that treat education most like a market are in the third world. The countries with the best educational systems might have reduced and carefully controlled competition at some places but ensuring overall quality is the priority which is not obtained on the cheap.

    4. You want to farm out the education and care of Polish children to THE LOWEST FUCKING BIDDER?????????????

  37. darthsida says:

    Karol

    I agree it makes no sense to economise on education.
    Now choose:

    1. This country has been run by idiots who don’t realize it.
    2. This country has been run by people who realize it only too well — but don’t have money.
    3. This country’s teachers don’t work well, they’re mediocre at best, and so they don’t deserve good payment. (It makes sense to economise on mediocrity.)

    I choose point 2. — Poland is a poor tree. By the fruit I know it.

    There are teachers who were found redudant; some managed to escape into earlier retirement, some had to change their major (think teachers of Russian teaching English now, past a course or two). There is some pool of available teaching jobs for teachers of English yet, but not everywhere. Classes around my village don’t include 30 kids, some have 15. (And yet PE and foreign language classes are given to each sex separately.)

    Teachers made a compact with Socialism a long time ago: they would not earn well — but they would retire sooner, have longer vacations, work less — they would usually be females in a hurry to run their households after work. They would be “wives of well-earning men”, as you put it. But things changed: teachers of now are taken their earlier retirement chances, and they will work more for less money. (Just as they have to work more since 1999 reform.) I can understand anger / despair of those who already are teachers. I cannot understand anyone who wants to become one. (Unlike Polish doctors, Polish teachers have little to offer to the West.)

    PS Any little more money teachers could have goes to others. E.g. do you know education authorities (“kuratoria”) should be dissolved on the spot, the report says? You think they will be? Bwahaha.

  38. darthsida says:

    Michael,
    where were you with your misgivings when Poland hailed or had to hail Balcerowicz and Co.? (This to reply your doubts about free market.)

    “The test of an educational system is not the appearance of isolated geniuses but overall levels of education in the population. ”
    When there are no geniuses getting rich on the local market — though statistically they should be — you can blame either mental inferiority of the average Pole, or something else. I choose Polish way of teaching: let kids learn encyclopedias.

    Polish teachers going to fill in teaching vacancies in the Isles sure choose a higher bidder.

    Btw, will you name a few “third world” countries that “treat education most like a market” and include Britain and USA therein? Most obliged.

  39. darthsida says:

    => Piotr,
    jawohl, das stimmt.

  40. Michael Farris says:

    Markets are wonderful for some things (like shoes and sausage). But they’re not the only or most important consideration for others (like education and healthcare).

    The US (can’t speak for the UK) allows some (highly regulated) competition but makes sure that free, compulsory education is available for all. Yes, there are quality issues for a lot of reasons (most of which are irrelevant here) but children regardless of parental income status are entitled to a place in school. If you accept that principle, you’ve ceded that markets are not the sole or most important factor in education policy.

    Look closely at educational systems in sub-saharan Africa or Pakistan or many places in Latin America. The law might even ‘guarantee’ an education but in reality if you can’t pay for a place in a good school, you’re left out and relegated to peasant status for the rest of your life.

    And doesn’t the fact that there’s an international market for Polish teachers maybe make you think they aren’t so horrible after all?

    And I stand by my last comment, you want to put Polish children in the care of people who’ll work more clock hours for less money than current Polish teachers. If you think current practices suck, let’s put you in charge of education and check back in five years.

  41. DC says:

    Impressive kid! (in guest’s link)

    But what does “in Poland, [testing] is very collaborative”mean?

  42. Michael Farris says:

    ““in Poland, [testing] is very collaborative”mean?”

    It means that in some contexts, cheating by students is accepted.

    This _is_ a real problem in Polish education (as opposed to darthsida’s fevered imaginings about overpayed underworked teachers).

    The source of the problem are two other real problems;

    1. Second chances, by and large, don’t exist in Poland. Once you fall out of the mainstream, chances are you’ll never get back.

    2. Too much faith is put in test results, as in deciding what a ‘passing score’ is ahead of time and giving students grades according to that with no other considerations. No thought is given to variables like a) student just had a bad day (it happens to all of us) b) the test itself was poorly made (again, it happens) c) student is making acceptable overall progress (if the test requires 73.4 points and the student gets 73.1, then it’s considered ‘objective’ to fail the student.

    Note that these real problems in the educational system would not be improved by following darthsida’s suggested policy of turning teachers into store cashiers.

  43. island1 says:

    Poland revolves around Copernicus, not the other way round, even though it’s counter intuitive.

  44. Michael Farris says:

    “overpayed”

    overpaid even (I’ve gotta start posting while sober…)

  45. Pawel says:

    island1, is it Poland? I thought it was only my little charming town, where he was born:D

    darthsida,
    btw – your example doesn’t match the situation and you know it,
    = but if your hypothetical Polish Fiefdom of London demanded military assistance from Poland against the government of Britain, I’d seriously wonder:) and especially if your hypotetical Londoner McCopernicus was a Polish MP from London Fiefdom constituency:D And provided that London was a place where Polish and British elements mixed together for ages in equal numbers, as in then Royal Prussia, was a land where Polish and German (or East Low German) elements did. And provided that as in Pomerania/Royal Prussia/Pomerelia/Pomorze Nadwiślańskie everythig was mixed, and Polish people spoke German, German people spoke Polish etc. And where citizens were against the German Order (people of Torun demolised their castle with bare hands btw.)

  46. darthsida says:

    => Guest
    “Born in Poland and moved to the United States when he was 13 years old.” I rest my case.

  47. darthsida says:

    => Island
    Watch out, another heresy (such as “Copernicus was male”) and you’ll get yourself a stake :)

  48. darthsida says:

    => Paweł
    My example matches the sitation and I know it. Any colonies this man could organise would not be Polish colonies but would stay Curonian.
    I see you insist on calling Copernicus Polish? I wonder why.

  49. darthsida says:

    => Michael

    Sorry, but 1989 and on, Balcerowicz and his sectaries, no one was talking too much that there were sacred areas that “the invisible hand” of the free market should not grasp. And you daresay: Healthcare? (But aware of the recent govt’s plans for the hospital industry?)

    And why not food industry? Why not power sectors, mining included? Why not water suppliers? Why not police? Why not the military? Why not any and all transportation? Why not building industries? Which of these is not “most important” for the well-being of a society?

    The US pattern, as Hollywood tells me, includes private schools that are for the rich elite. The not so rich end up in schools that are worse or much worse. The poorest schools are gangstas paradise waiting for Michelles Pfeiffer to come. Who usually don’t come, as M. Pfeiffer is an actress, not a teacher. Parents worry “we have to save for our kid’s education”. Or kids worry themselves. (Have you seen the movie “21”? Have you encountered any American gal offering her virginity in an act of fundraising?)

    All this looks like economic segregation. Read: free market. But you don’t recommend one for Poland?

    The US free market of education has at least 2 advantages though. It is not improbable for a poorman to get a loan to cover their education-linked expenses, if one is talented enough. (Think why John Fleischman had to go to Alaska in “Northern Exposure”.) Unlike in the US, a graduate from a top Polish university is no way sure will be able to pay off the loan.
    The other comfort for America is: it is possible for a parent to teach their child(ren) on their own. (If the documentaries about the Amish are true, for instance.)

    – – – –

    And doesn’t the fact that there’s an international market for Polish teachers maybe make you think they aren’t so horrible after all?

    Non sequitur.

    The way I see it, UK teachers did what I suggest Polish teachers should do: they abandoned the damned ship. Quit teaching. Found themselves other jobs, made ones if necessary. Only when demand should be greater than supply, teacher’s pay will not be almswardly.

  50. michael farris says:

    “Sorry, but 1989 and on, Balcerowicz and his sectaries, no one was talking too much that there were sacred areas that “the invisible hand” of the free market should not grasp.”

    I’m not responsible for everything Bal and co. said, much less what they didn’t say. You are not required to believe what they said (and didn’t say either).

    “And why not food industry?”

    Privatised food industries work better than state run ones.

    “Why not power sectors, mining included?”

    I’m not familiar enough with that field to comment.

    “Why not water suppliers?”

    This is an infrastructure issue. No one wants five competing water utilities each laying out their own pipes under (and in and over) the streets. Whether or not (or how) it’s practical/possible to introduce competition into household water supplies is unclear.

    “Why not police?”

    Private police == mafia

    “Why not the military?”

    Private military == mafia with tanks and bombs (not a good idea).
    But larger countries do break up the military into branches that compete to some extent for resources out of the military budget.

    “Why not any and all transportation?”

    Competition in individual transport == generally good, competition in public transport == not so sure (context matters more than ideologies).

    “Why not building industries?”

    Look food, privatized building industries do a better job than state run ones. Of course there could and should be help for the truly unfortunate who are cut out of the market.

    “The US pattern, as Hollywood tells me”

    Hollywood tells you a bunch of bullshit. Elites send their kids either to private or public schools depending on a lot of factors. One problem is that school funding is not state or citywide but by school district so that rich neighborhoods can afford much better schools than poor ones.

    “All this looks like economic segregation. Read: free market. But you don’t recommend one for Poland?”

    I certainly don’t recommend a US style model for much of anything in Poland. Generally European models will work better (though in education I wouldn’t recommend the UK model either).

    “The US free market of education has at least 2 advantages though. It is not improbable for a poorman to get a loan to cover their education-linked expenses, if one is talented enough.”

    This depends on the talent being recognized which would be much harder in your model of education.

    “The other comfort for America is: it is possible for a parent to teach their child(ren) on their own. (If the documentaries about the Amish are true, for instance.)”

    The Amish do not homeschool exactly though they run their own schools that have to meet certain state standards. Those that do homeschool (mostly because they don’t want their precious snowflakes getting dangerous ideas from their age peers) have to meet guidlines set by the state. If you homeschool in the US and try to say Copernicus is German (with no further qualification or explanation) your kids’ll end up waiting for Michelle Pfeiffer.

    “Non sequitur.”

    Not really. If Polish teachers are as bad as you say, they wouldn’t be able to find employment in a place like the UK. They can. Either the people employing them or you is wrong.

  51. darthsida says:

    Michael,

    I took it you’d excluded education and healthcare as too vital to be within the free market’s circle of struggle and survival of the meanest. Why then, people die quickly without water and food, after a time without houses and power, without police and army they are exposed to lethal situations.

    Apparently, your criterion was different from what I thought, but I can’t say what it is. You may not recommend “a US style model”, but your US GDP does (as opposed to Polish GDP with no considerable profits from scientists)

    —-

    You say: “If Polish teachers are as bad as you say, they wouldn’t be able to find employment in a place like the UK”
    Non sequitur again. Being bad (whatever ‘bad’ means) does not have to be irreversible or uncorrectable. Another possibility is UK schools got real desperate (and beggars can’t be choosers).

    —-

    I take it all the movies I mentioned are wrong in their depictions. Hm, you don’t sound convincing. Either say Hollywood spreads bullshit — or make my putative kids wait for Hollywood’s Michelle Pfeiffer. But not both.
    And if homeschooling meant I wouldn’t have to correct public school’s baloney (that Copernicus was Polish), then I’m all ayes for homeschooling :)

    —-

    For any future uses, PLEASE throw me some quote — or refrain from fevered imaginings about what I say:

    = darthsida’s fevered imaginings about overpaid underworked teachers (Of the two, I didn’t write a thing about ‘overpaid’. Whether teachers are ‘underworked’ or ‘working hard to little avail’ was my guess, and I would like teachers to choose one — or prove me wrong with a third option)

    = darthsida’s suggested policy of turning teachers into store cashiers. (‘store cashiers’, wtf? Yups, time to sober up, Michael. A drunken teacher is not good in any country.

  52. Pawel says:

    darthsida => you insist in claiming his Germanhood.
    I say otherwise to point how difficult it is to say such things difinetely.

  53. darthsida says:

    => Paweł, Piotr

    When I insist on Copernicus’ Germanhood (or Eskimohood) here — it’s simply because others insist on his Polishness. I understand that many Poles feel down, embarassed by the fact that their predecessors’ achievements are so few (“no money-making scientists”) — or so wrong. It’s not easy for them to say husaria was not Polish or that Westerplatte did not mean a thing or that Warsaw Uprising was a crime.

    Young Poles don’t have many achievements of their own (yet?). It’s not easy to live in a country of losers — for people who adore history. That is why they’ll cling desperately to the few they have — or to each supernova that may appear: Adam Malysz, or some third-rate footballer. Poles who cling to their history cannot afford losing “Polishness” of Copernicus (or of Chopin, or of Marie Curie).

    But if you belong to people who judge other people by their achievements and not by their nationalities, your sleep will be sounder, trust me.

    Now, Copernicus:
    Some sources I have (e.g. PRL schoolbooks) say he was Polish. Some sources I have (e.g. Nazi German titles) say he was undoubtedly German. But follow the German Wiki link I gave above and consider pro-Polish / pro-German / ambivalent arguments (for) yourselves.

    Then call him what you will. I am simply glad he made the Polish taxpayer richer. In a similar fashion, I am glad Adolf Hitler ordered construction of some roads in what is Poland today. This is my last say about Copernicus, because I think I have just said it all clearly and thoroughly enough.

  54. Ewa says:

    I think you might have a rose tinted view of how science happens… Most of the science/technology that comes out of the US (the world leader) has been funded, at some point in its development, by the US taxpayer who spent a massive $78billion in 2007. It’s then picked up by commercial companies who reap the profits or the military who… well, we’ve seen what happens. You’re barking up the wrong tree by blaming teachers – it’s taxpayers who hold the key.

    =Mind, Poland never had scientists who make local inventions that earn global fortune.

    If you leave out the word ‘local’ I’ll bet there have been – it’s just that they did it as part of a team that didn’t do it in Poland… That’s not their fault.

  55. darthsida says:

    Ewa, thanks for your comment.

    I am not asking: where are the builders of Polish space shuttles, of Polish dark-matter weaponry or of Polish panacea for all cancers — cause products of that complexity do need big money, industries, infrastructure. Instead, I am asking: what about smaller-scale inventions? Ones that require an idea, a businessplan and a business angel?

    And I don’t want to leave out the word ‘local’. (Why should the Polish taxpayer care about Polish engineers going to build bridges in America?)

  56. Ewa says:

    I think the chances of developing a world-class, science-based businesses (that’s what you’re talking about, right?) out of an idea generated in a bedroom/classroom+business plan+business angel are next to nothing, regardless of where you are in the world.

    What kind of smaller-scale inventions are you thinking of? Just because a technology has been developed with defense funding doesn’t mean that it can’t be applied commercially – the fact that your mobile phone is smaller, your computer more secure, your airplane safer is pretty much down to technology that was originally developed for the (US) military at some point. But it all starts off in a lab where the ideas are generated, developed and tested so that they work, then the intellectual property has to be wrestled out of the grip of the institution that originally funded it (or from the commercial sponsor who often doesn’t want anything released that will compete with their current product range) and then a venture capitalist has to be found who a) understands it and b) sees the potential but who doesn’t cut a deal that rapes the scientists so that they are completely demotivated, and then the whole thing has to be developed so that it can be produced at the right price and then the business has to be managed to be commercially viable and finally sold to the public to deliver the returns that the venture capitalists need to justify the investment to their investors. However you look at it there’s a massive educational and commercial infrastructure that lies behind even smaller scale science-based inventions which simply doesn’t exist yet in Poland. It also makes anything that isn’t going to repay the VCs much more difficult to get off the ground. In the US, the first stages of this is pretty much funded by the taxpayer and places like Silicon Valley is pretty good at the rest.

    Polish taxpayers should care about Polish scientists going to the US because they’re learning about how this process works at somebody else’s expense. Scientists get better with age, not worse. There are already a number of international venture capital funds trawling through Polish universities to see what can be commercialised, so sooner or later the machine will start working here and having Polish scientists who understand how it works will be a good thing for Poland.

    But the subject of Polish engineers is a separate one ;)

  57. darthsida says:

    Ewa,

    If your picture of raping the scientists by the Ugly Global (is-it-American) Capital were correct, than what are we discussing Polish teachers here for? Let’s send every Pole to US for proper training.

    By ‘larger scale’ I mean the Internet (yes, primarily for US military purposes), and ‘smaller scale’ could be an OS (DOS, Linux) — why not? A webbrowser? A service providing something people want globally? There is just Gadu-Gadu I can think of, among Polish products that managed to repel competition from abroad, but I don’t use GG, so don’t know — is it that good or have the users just gotten used to it.

    Can’t give you any exact example of what I mean, as if I had a profitable idea I’d take it down, secure proof of my authorship, then advertise the thing, have it funded, franchised and propagated :D

  58. Sylwia says:

    Darth: My example matches the sitation and I know it. Any colonies this man could organise would not be Polish colonies but would stay Curonian. I see you insist on calling Copernicus Polish? I wonder why.

    Hmm, only that Royal Prussia wasn’t a Polish fief. It was an integral part of Poland, unlike Ducal Prussia that was Polish king’s fief. So is a man born in Poland, and living to the end of his days in Poland a Pole or not?

  59. Sylwia says:

    Actually what kind of Polish inventions do you mean? Is All Sky Automated Survey good enough for you? Or not since likely we don’t earn money on it?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Sky_Automated_Survey

  60. darthsida says:

    Sylwia, thanks for your remarks.

    1.
    Your argument about Royal / Duchal Prussia would carry some weight only if we agreed that Prussia stopped being German(ward) the moment the bad guys got beaten and had to sign the Second Treaty of Thurn. But following this method, you’d have to admit that Poles on the Soviet side of the border stopped being Polish after 1945 — or that there were no Poles after the third partition. It’s a feasible approach.

    You can say what Pawel already said “Copernicus lived before the modern concept of nationality” — and call him [Copernicus] a Prussian. — Or you can weigh pros for and cons against Polish / German C. That’s what I did. Are are yet another person that escapes the question “why would C’s nationality be too important to you”?

    2.
    I followed the link. To read “Prof. Bohdan Paczyński of Princeton University” is a meaningful, eh, snub for Poland? (Copernicus studied abroad too. Would they have achieved what they did – had they studied elsewhere? I don’t know. But where were their Polish teachers?)

    Anyway, the project is in Chile and is supported by a William Golden. I don’t know how the project participants share possible profits. If there are no profits (and not just any profits, but profits that make Polish taxpayers happier), then — no, it’s not good enough for me.

  61. Sylwia says:

    1. Only that those guys from Royal Prussia asked for their land to be annexed to Poland = they asked for Polish citizenship. If a Pole asks the US government for American citizenship and is admitted, does he become an American or he and his children will always be tainted with their Polishness to you? And are you certain that Copernicus’s father wasn’t Polish? And please, next time give a less biased source than the German Wikipedia.

    It is important because you highhandedly decide who is a Pole or not. Without any regard for people’s personal choices, or indeed, the constitution of Poland which says that one doesn’t have to live up to your personal definition to be recognized as a Pole. It’s enough to be born here and support the interest of Poland, which Copernicus undoubtedly did. He even commanded the Polish army.

    It is important because according to you neither my family nor I are Poles, which I find personally offensive. It’s not a matter of our complexes. It’s your complex that says that no one who’s not of 100% Polish blood could or would want to be a Pole. We are Poles, whether you like it or not, and applying German definitions to Polish people reminds me of the Nazi guys who counted the percent of Jewish or German blood in a man in order to define them as a non-Pole. It may be unimaginable to you but there are people who don’t like being pointed out with your finger as non-Polish enough. I am serious. Please, stop it.

    2. Your eyes must be bad if you follow a link and can’t read the first paragraph but read the second. The first one says: The ASAS, located in Chile, is managed by Grzegorz Pojmański of the Warsaw University Observatory via the internet. A Polish guy, taught by Polish teachers, working at the Warsaw University, who goes to Chile only once a year to check the machine. In the era of internet one can operate a system being half the globe away.

    You also noticed William Golden but not Poland’s State Committee for Scientific Research. Is it how you read every information?

  62. darthsida says:

    Sylwia

    1. You are biased: saying without any substantiation that German Wiki is biased. While you don’t find English Wiki biased [giving me the ASAS link]. Either your bias is a plain jingo-case. Or you don’t speak German and found a stupid way to diss my source.

    2. You are hysterical — if you (or your family) get personally offended by me calling Copernicus German.

    3. You are a damn liar — accusing me of not understanding the difference between nationality [narodowość] and citizenship [obywatelstwo]. FYI, my definition of nationality is: your nationality is what you feel in your heart, period! I don’t care whether your nationality is Eskimo or not. It’s none of my biz. You don’t care what my nationality is, as the choices of my heart are none of your biz. Reciprocated indifference. What I do care, however, is what your citizenship (or to be more precise — taxpayership) is — mostly to the extent of your taxpayership agreeing or arguing with mine.

    4. You are blind. Did you read “I don’t know how the project participants share possible profits”? Participants include Polish participants.

    You managed to get personal, which is not uncommon on the web — but at the same time you lost the subject of the post in your comment. Pity.

  63. Sylwia says:

    1. I’d give you neither German nor English Wiki as a source for Copernicus’s nationality. You want an example? Here you are. Their argument for Copernicus’s being German:

    “All seine Publikationen sind in deutscher und lateinischer Sprache.”

    Why? Latin was the official written language of Poland. Like Copernicus every Pole wrote in Latin. Which of Copernicus’s publications was in German? Did he write one of his works in German or only his letters to German people? I’m writing in English right now, does it make me English?

    How many troll wars there were over Copernicus’s nationality over at Wiki, that caused the articles’ being locked, and how many over the ASAS project?

    2. I’m sorry if you find me hysterical. Go to the US and call their soldiers non-Americans because they’re black. Will they find your definition hysterical or racist?

    3. By your definition – what makes you think that Copernicus didn’t feel Polish in his heart?

    You don’t care what my nationality is, as the choices of my heart are none of your biz.

    Then what gives you the right to think that the choices of Copernicus’s heart are your business?

    Since we’re using English, how about an English definition? The Oxford English Dictionary:

    Nationality

    “National origin or identity; (Law) the status of being a citizen or subject of a particular state; the legal relationship between a citizen and his or her state, usually involving obligations of support and protection; a particular national identity. Also: the legal relationship between a ship, aircraft, company, etc., and the state in which it is registered.”

    4. I did, but you made sure to exclude them from your message here. I preferred to blame it on your bad sighting rather than manipulation.

    How did I manage to get personal? I didn’t call you anything here. You say that people like me are non-Poles, and called me personally ‘biased’, ‘hysterical’, and a ‘damn liar’.

  64. darthsida says:

    1. Have you given me sources that Copernicus was Polish? If you had, I would have had to copy your method and say they are post-Communist (or troll) writing.
    I trust the German Wiki text, so I don’t have to prove its ‘innocence’ or ‘truth’. You do not believe the statement “seine Publikationen sind in deutscher und lateinischer Sprache.”? The burden of the proof (to the contrary) is on you, not me. — You prove that, then we talk. BUT WHY DO I HAVE TO SCREAM TO SAY AGAIN HIS NATIONALITY CAN’T FUCKING MATTER [TO THE TAXES OF POLAND]?

    2. Quote: Go to the US and call their soldiers non-Americans because they’re black.

    This is silly. Blackness has nothing to do with nationalities.

    3. Quote: By your definition – what makes you think that Copernicus didn’t feel Polish in his heart?

    This is silly. Why do you think he did?

    4. Quote what gives you the right to think that the choices of Copernicus’s heart are your business?

    Imagine ‘nationality’ is a diet. When you go on a diet X — it’s none of my business and I have no right to argue it should be Y or Z. I can however watch what you eat and observe: “this diet is fat-free”. Or: “this diet is Eskimo”. A choice of a man’s nationality is his / her only. The perception, thus reception, of that choice is open.

    If any male black American should call himself a redskinned Apache, it’s his damn right. People hearing this have the right to chuckle. He has the right to not give a damn about people chuckling. Is that clear enough?

    5. The English language can be really pathetic at times. It has problems to distinctly tell the difference between nationalities and ethnicities. In fact it can’t sort out what nationality is — a Scot may be of Scottish and British nationalities at once, for instance.

    When the language says “English teacher” — you can hear “teacher who is in England”, or “teacher who is English” or “teacher of English”. The adjective may refer to nationality, citizenship, profession, place of residence (or to any two or three or all of these).

    More, when you take a British passport, see the “nationality” line, you think it stands for Polish ‘narodowość’? Bwahaha.

    Impose your definitions on me only if yours are better. Your definition is not better than mine because yours is not as clear-cut and all-embracing as mine. And since we’re using words, how about a few from Wittgenstein trivialised: When you’re silly, stay silent.

  65. Sylwia says:

    Go ahead and claim this source a post-communist troll: Britannica

    Or how about this philosopher?

    “It gave me pleasure to contemplate the right of the Polish nobleman to upset with his simple veto the determinations of a [parliamentary] session; and the Pole Copernicus seemed to have made of this right against the determinations and presentations of other people, the greatest and worthiest use.”

    Friedrich Nietzsche

    You do not believe the statement “seine Publikationen sind in deutscher und lateinischer Sprache.”? The burden of the proof (to the contrary) is on you, not me. — You prove that, then we talk.

    You haven’t even understood what I said, have you?

    This is silly. Blackness has nothing to do with nationalities.

    Why not? Since you persistently confuse nationality with ethnicity and apply definitions of people who described Poles as subhumans, I think it’s a very similar case.

    This is silly. Why do you think he did?

    No, it’s not. What makes you think he’d feel Eskimo or German, and not Polish for example? Did he side with Eskimos, Germans, or Poles?

    If any male black American should call himself a redskinned Apache, it’s his damn right. People hearing this have the right to chuckle. He has the right to not give a damn about people chuckling. Is that clear enough?

    And Apachean is an example of nationality?

    The English language can be really pathetic at times. It has problems to distinctly tell the difference between nationalities and ethnicities.

    Or you do?

    Impose your definitions on me only if yours are better. Your definition is not better than mine because yours is not as clear-cut and all-embracing as mine.

    Your definitions are not better. It’s just you who likes them better.

  66. darthsida says:

    Ah yes, the Flawless Britannica, the Ur-Volume Untouched by Failing Human Thought, the Meaning of 42, the Ultimate Pool of All Kenning, the Galaxian Logos Incarnate, and the Monogantous Oracle of all Eskimoes, Through Which Everything Is Known. — Boy, I had a laugh.

    PS Nietzsche was proud of his Polish descent. Regardless of whether he had one or not, this implies his heart was pro-Polish. If this should be actual, then his nationality was Polish. And as a Pole, he could see too many Poles around, just to get comforted in his own weakness.

  67. nicq says:

    darthsida:

    “It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.”

    Now shut up, you’re not funny any more.

  68. island1 says:

    nicq: Be careful what you wish for.

  69. Some Other Dude says:

    A few points:
    No one cares where Copernicus was from. The point is he was right. He has been judged by history on the merits of his discoveries, not his birth.

    Some Dude pretty much demolished everything Darthsida said. Why do people hate teachers so much?

  70. Steven Woodruff says:

    Why should anything change at all? Every third Pole has a Masters it seems, I know a plumber with a BA in English lit. The teachers of Poland are doing a fantastic job. They may deserve a raise in pay, but they won’t be getting one soon until they start turning out half wits with highschool diplomas like the USA.The richest, most successful country on earth. Make sense?

  71. MaterialGirl says:

    Copernicus was patron of my high school!
    He felt much more polish than german (see his writing).

    But I didn’t know that his mother Barbara Watzenrode faught against Teutonic knights. Perhaps with my ancestor? :D

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s