87% of Poles are against gay adoption

And 75% of Poles are against same sex marriage.

With high figures showing the negative attitude of Poles towards legal homosexual unions, Tomasz Szypuła from the Campaign against Homophobia muses that they are the result of the fear of Poles towards different values and ideas. “Many Poles do not even have any gay or lesbian acquaintances, so their opinion on homosexuals is based on what they see in the media,” Mr. Szypuła sighs.

Three questions to get us warmed up.

  • How many Polandian readers have gay or lesbian friends? (I do, so that’s one.)
  • How many agree with gay adoption and gay marriage?
  • Is there any ‘media’ about gays in Poland??? (other than Tinky Winky of course)

gay-adoption

Actually, I have a question of my own to our resident gay experts – why is it neccessary to say “gay & lesbian”? I though gay covered both sexes? Seems to be defeating the object somewhat for gays, or is it just reporters, to get all sexist and hung up on the terminology?

Anyway, onto our next question:

One of the reasons that the results are so negative towards same-sex unions is explained by social psychologist Dr. Norbert Maliszewski from Warsaw University, who believes that the increasing amount of gay-rights marches held in Polish cities has had a reverse effect on Polish society, as reflected by the poll.

Do you think gay-rights marches hinder the gay agenda, or do you think Norbs is full of it?

And our final question is:

In response to the figures, Professor Zdzisław Krasnodębski from Bremen University says “it shows that Poland still has a society drawn on traditional values, and is not succumbing to Europe-wide trends.”

Zdzisław in Bremen thinks Poles are still clinging onto traditional values and are reluctant to embrace Europe-wide trends (like accepting gay marriage and adoption one assumes). Do you agree with this as a general statement or are traditional values only held for certain things? For example, many seem to have embraced the European trend of migrating to find better work. Many have found the trend of credit cards and cars better than Maulchs to be something they can embrace. Loads have embraced going abroad for holidays, McDonalds, American TV serials, paying less than a zillion PLN for car insurance, private healthcare, branded clothing, internet banking, internet eveything, films by the people who made Shrek………….Where is the line between embrace and reject?

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123 thoughts on “87% of Poles are against gay adoption

  1. […] writes about a new survey showing that 75% of Poles are opposed to same-sex marriage and 87% are against gay […]

  2. PMK says:

    I have gay friends.
    I’m for gay adoption and gay marriage (and gays serving in the military.)
    Well, let me clarify the marriage part: I’m pro-secular gay marriage. If the Catholic Church doesn’t want to perform it, it’s their right not to (just as it’s any other church group’s right to perform or not perform it.)
    Lastly, my opinion is moot anyway, since I’m not a Polish citizen. Let Poland decide and I won’t judge one way or the other.

    I don’t know about gays in the media, but I get a faint anti-gay sentiment from my students. Well, one came right out on this very subject and said, “I don’t mind gay people, but I don’t think they should be adopting kids.”

  3. Karolina says:

    – I have gay friends, and even gay Polish friends, but none of them call Poland home.
    – I support the right to (secular) marriage for gay and lesbian couples, and I support the right to let them adopt children.
    – The only time I’ve seen gays portrayed in the Polish media at all is in comedy sketches, and they usually have to do with the punchline. But I don’t pay attention to Polish media very much.
    – I think our buddy Norbert is echoing the homophobia that is so popular with more than three-quarters of the population. I personally am a great believer in visibility and until there is a less annoying public channel for gay Poles to show the population that they exist, marches it will be.
    – So much of the Polish identity is based on a shared religion. For a country that has been divided and at times denied even the assertion that it exists, I can understand how any aspect of the culture holding the nation together would root itself deep down and the people would cling to it. I think Catholicism being a largely homophobic religion, and Poland being so adamantly Catholic, it’s hard out there for gay Poles, and it’s not going to get much easier any time soon.

  4. Ania says:

    I don’t have gay friends, only friends who fuck around indiscriminately. No politics involved.

    “marriage” is a term that already describes something. two lovers of the same sex should invent a new word for themselves. Polish law allows entering in all kinds of civil agreements by consent. Even the issue of visiting a sick lover in a hospital is by permission – put a permission in your wallet.

    Adoption issue – I have this creeping suspicion that what will happen in countries that allow it in exactly 17 years will be murders and shootings by rebelling teenagers. Poland will do what she normally does, wait it out and see how it looks then.

    yes, there is ‘media’. Biedroń, Biedroneczka kochana, is there always. But I can’t vouch for the TV, I’m abroad. I suppose TV still shows politicians and seriale.

    Catholicism is not really a ‘homophobic religion’, but it originates from one. As a culture, Catholicism provided refuge for gays in the monkhood and priesthood, but that has now come to an abrupt end, with the paedophilia scandal. Right now no gay students are admitted.
    But the KK has declared that homosexual persons are welcome in the churches and respected as persons – however they can’t go to Communion if not living clean, just like everyone else. I can’t because I’m living with a boyfriend, not that I remember what is done inside. But I doubt gays are even interested in going.

    Marches: Big problem here, Scatts – as of now, for a minority of people ‘being European’ means always catching up with the new fashions. In my opinion we never stopped being European, so I get aggravated at those comments. Somehow Finland gets to keep their wooden huts, France doesn’t have to eat toasted bread, Germany have limit-free roads, England has no IDs, but our sorry leaders have to do all kinds of slavery because ‘Union says so’. Gays fall in the same category – aggressive promotion of modern lifestyle where I can’t buy meat in the market from a farmer, it has to be controlled, but I can have sex as long as it’s fashionable. If ‘gay forces’ were less modern and lefty, they would say that only in free Poland there is freedom, German and Russian occupiers executed gays, or something like that. But they can’t because they are not in a war for freedom, they are in a war against normality, tradition, family, and above all, Church. And we won’t be changed against our wills.

  5. Ewa says:

    – I have both gay and lesbian friends in Poland, both Polish and non-Polish. AFAIK the lesbians prefer to be called lesbians for the same reason that gays want recognition – if it doesn’t have a name it’s not visible. Wasn’t this why, for a long time, homosexuality was illegal in the UK but because the lawmakers couldn’t imagine that two women could be lovers, they were exempt?
    – I’m pro gay marriage and adoption – I don’t see that being brought up by a ‘conventional’ parental unit is a guarantee of being treated well.
    – I have no idea what the Polish broadcast media says about gays & lesbians as I don’t listen to it, but I haven’t noticed any overt bias in the broadsheets (but I haven’t been looking for it either…)

    I think that Prof. Krasnodębski is probably right that Polish society on average will have ‘traditional’ attitudes towards sexuality but I suspect that there will be a big difference between urban and rural populations. From what I see, Poles (particularly the young urban ones) are fully embracing these European-wide trends (Ania – not the same as ‘being European’, which is not mentioned in the quote), especially those to do with consumption. To to my eye there isn’t really any ‘Polish’ flavour to them – just go down to the Galeria Krakowska (which caused gridlock in Krakow when it was first opened) on a Saturday to see what I mean – you could be anywhere. I’m looking forward to other European-wide trends becoming more entrenched here though – like green living, sustainable development, citizen activism, sober driving…

  6. MaterialGirl says:

    I have got 2 gays friends from Polandian
    Scats and island1!

  7. Bartek says:

    Scatts, to satisfy your curiosity:

    I’ve had three friends who are lesbians. Two of them turned out to be together, to my great surprise (one was 16, another 14 at the time!), I met the third during my studies and having gained some experience I easily recognised her orientation – it appears that lesbians BEHAVE (but not always look) in a typically mannish manner and confirms the hypothesis that homosexuality is inborn.

    I’m deeply curious if I know any other gay but I’m not aware of their preferences. Some time ago I started supposing one of my very good and close friends of homosexuality, but I decided I’d never ask him about it, if he comes out, I’ll accept it, provided he won’t be making a pass on me (he has never done and I don’t think it would be probable).

    I would give any gay pair a permission to adopt a child, but I have nothing against marriages or any other legalised form of being together which carries privileges (tax, mortgage, legacy, etc.). Why? What two people do together (mostly in their bedroom) is their own business, but if they decide to have a child it involves a third party, and in my books that’s where the freedom ends.

    “gay and lesbians” – I think “gay” refers to a man, “lesbian” to a woman, but saying “gay” took root in English – I heard it from native speakers (mostly from US, but I make allowances for their English), but also reputable weeklies and papers give the headlines “gay marriages…” and the titles refer to marriages of both sexes.

    Marches – I think if homosexuality is innate it doesn’t need any promotion, in democracy everybody has a right to air their views publicly, but fighting for gay rights should take on a different form. Obscene, scantily dressed guys (or gays) prancing about on the platform might be considered an offensive sight. Frankly speaking I find it distasteful when two people french-kiss in a public place or show their feelings in too explicit way, but indeed two men kissing make me feel even more outraged – as far as kissing a girl could happen to me, kissing a man – Heaven forbid!

    Some say Catholicism has a built-in mistrust for anything that is new, innovative, treats it as a danger. Homosexuality might be regarded in the same way, however any pre-marital sex is not allowed in Catholic teachings, regardless of the sex, so maybe church shouldn’t condemn gays who live in purity.

    In our society, it’s harder to embrace something you cannot understand. It beyond my comprehension how you can feel a sexual drive towards a person of the same sex, but it’s not my business, everybody arranges their lives the way they want, I don’t have to understand it. For some people crucial factor is the discrepancy with some moral, religious or social views. Homosexuals have probably existed since hundreds of years, but to conform to the rest of their fellow men they either hid their real propensities and by force got married or decided to live on their own, or maybe sought another “misfit”…

    You’ve chosen a controversial topic as for our country – I wonder if we’ll hit 100 comments once again…

  8. DC says:

    Looking at how things played out in “the west”, there seem to be three ingredients, not necessarily in order: Marches and political activity by the the most confident (and sometimes ostentatious) segment of GLBT society to register our presence. Then the most important part: one by one, people come out and are either accepted or rejected by friends, co-workers, and acquaintances. This is key because these are more personal, than political transactions. Finally, legal protections and judicial decision making eventually catches up. All of this took decades, and we’re still not done. Many EU countries lead the US at present.

    Much of the coming out process was pushed along as an outcome of the AIDS crisis. People’s failing health forced it since it could not be hidden. Results were mixed but remember this was a scary time for everyone since how the disease was transmitted and treated was poorly understood, at least in the early 80s. But there was no going back – people now understood that the gay community was not restricted to men with effeminate traits who were politically active. Nearly everyone knew someone. Coming out for everyone became far easier. Then people could decide, on an individual basis, if those they knew were good people.

    So back to today: if you think you don’t know any gay people, I’ll bet you my next paycheck you do. You just might not be aware.

    Should gay and lesbian people be allowed to adopt? It’s the same as for anyone. The best interest of the child is the deciding factor. Some gay people would make terrible parents, just as some straight parents are. But many would make great parents and these people should be allowed. There’s already a process to sort this out, right?

    @Ania: my sister and her lesbian partner have 2 kids in their early teens. They are respectful happy kids who have loving relationships with their Polish-born Dziadzi and Babci. I wish you could meet them. I don’t see shotguns in their futures.

  9. Ania says:

    DC- very levelled post.
    No, I don’t know any gay people. I know homosexual, loose, libertine, restricted, shy, married, and single people. None of them are politicking with their intimacy.
    You will never get 100% hits. Two happy kids with a natural parent and their partner are good. Do you think they will want to know their fathers? do you think fathers count? As with every family issue, there are more persons involved – parents, grandparents, uncles. They all have a claim to a family member.
    This doesn’t mean that all of such kids are happy, it would be an error of pars pro toto – either way. But some kids will rebel, as kids do. If a child is taken away from grandparents and given to two gay guys to meet the ‘guidelines’, then the kid just my feel sold later in life.

  10. guest says:

    No to adoption and no to marriage.

    why?

    1.(especially) An adopted child needs a father and a mother. period. I would go crazy if i had two fathers or two mothers.

    2.”marriage” (lower taxes and so on). is a privilege you get from the state if you (at least potentially) can give the state new citizens/children and rise them. It is a two way road.

    And i am sorry but gay marriages, can (at least potentially) NOT create new citizens and can (at least potentially) NOT rise them like a mother+father. Just like marriages between brothers and sisters, mothers and sons, or men with children. They are all lethal and not fertile. Simply not valuable enough for the state, to give them privileges.

    And, yes i have gay friends and i respect them as persons.

  11. DC says:

    Hi Ania –

    I’m not sure I understand your distinction between gay and homosexual. Is it a matter of if they are politically active?

    My example of personal experience is not statistically significant of course. Likewise, two married heterosexual parents also do not provide a guarantee that things will turn out well. My opinion (and it’s just that) derived from this and other personal experiences is that what counts is a loving, stable relationship where the kids feel emotionally provided for and are taught right from wrong. The rest is almost a matter of chance since so many things can go wrong.

    Of course I would also be opposed to moving kids around based on “guidelines.” Again, it has to be about what is best for the child.

    They haven’t asked about their fathers yet, but if and when they do, it will need to be addressed honestly. Just like the adopted kids of straight parents.

  12. DC says:

    Guest –

    You might go crazy, but that does not mean everyone would.

    You seem to be arguing that straight married couples who don’t produce children should have their marriages annulled.

    Do you know any gay people raising children? Are you saying I should regard my niece and nephew as in a separate category and that I should not consider them properly raised? That doesn’t seem to benefit them.

  13. DC says:

    Only 2 Material Girl? :-)

  14. guest says:

    “You seem to be arguing that straight married couples who don’t produce children should have their marriages annulled.”

    ——–

    I said “at least potentially”.

  15. Ania says:

    guest, DC: actually, infertility is a basis for annulment, yes.
    DC: yes, gay is a political issue, homosexual is personal issue.
    Bartek: yes, homosexuals who live in chastity are simply like other people who live in grace. No difference.

    guest – DC did not mention tax relief. But I agree with you here.

    But he did mention AIDS. So is gay lifestyle increasing the risk? And is it good to expose the children to it? I’m not worried about casual contracting, of course. I’m worried about friends of the family, ‘californication’, ‘fucking and punching’, in short. I’m not saying that normal marriages are safe from being loose and contracting diseases. But I’m saying that just because a lot of people do wrong, it doesn’t make it right.

  16. Kiki says:

    I have gay friends and I can’t see a problem with them getting married.

    I do however see a big problem with them adopting children.
    I do not support it and will never do for one simple reason –
    it’s totally against the nature.
    The nature call is to prolong the species, to produce offspring, to survive.
    We need a female and a male to do it and that’s what’s called parents.

    I can’t see any reason in creating an articficial body , which cannot produce children but want them just for their own pleasure and the feeling of “fulfilment”.
    I can’t understand what purpose should it serve ?
    Not the children’s for sure.
    There is enough normal families who are waiting for adoption,
    and want to give the children a monther and a father, and this the closest you can get.

    Let’s not get carried away with giving gay couples the only right
    which the nature itself denies them.

    That’s my opionion and I’m not afraid to say it loud , just because it soin fashion to be pro-gay and pro-homo.
    Let’s get some balance here.

  17. DC says:

    “Gay lifestyle” is not a useful phrase except to encourage people to get excited rather than think. It mixes two separate things: sexuality and practice. Going with your definitions for a minute, homosexual is how I was when I was born and it’s a part of who I am. It says nothing about if I choose to have sex, how often, how many different partners, and if I practice safer sex. Or if I use intravenous drugs. The latter are factors for transmission of AIDS, not the former.

    These same factors apply to both straight and gay people. There is plenty of information online already concerning rates of infection and who’s infected. If you still think AIDS is a “gay disease” please check the numbers for Africa, Asia, and also the trends in North America.

    People who frequently engage in such risky behavior are poor candidates for adoption, in my opinion. What did I say that made you think otherwise? I can’t really understand the rest of your last paragraph.

  18. DC says:

    Kiki –

    What is this artificial body? I don’t understand.

  19. Scatts says:

    Material – As far as I know, Island and I might be classified as gay but heterosexual. Gay being used in the original sense of the word. Pawel on the other hand might have a lot to say on this topic, if he ever bothers to log in!! ;)

    Bartek – I assume you meant “I would [not] give any gay pair a permission to adopt a child” ??

    I’m obviously going to have to update my definition of the word gay – again.

    Interesting how many are cool with gay/lesbian marriage but not with adoption, especially with this “against nature” argument. If you believe the “natural way” is male & female coupling (and it would be hard to argue otherwise given the way the equipment is arranged) then I would have thought that should hold true for marriage as much as for kids. Or is this just evidence of how “meaningless” marriage is these days?

  20. kuba says:

    Since the definition of marriage is a man and a woman who want to procreate then people of the same sex can not be married. However, they can form a union and get the same benefits as people of the opposite sex but it is not marriage.

    There sexual activity is there decision, not that I agree with it.

  21. DC says:

    Yeah – where the hell is Paweł?

    Kuba – By your definition, straight people who don’t intend to have children cannot get married?

    No one has said explicitly yet, but marriage is both a legal/state thing and a church thing. The church can do what it likes, I think. The legal issues should be separate.

  22. Bartek says:

    yes, “not” was missing. interesting that every time I omit one word the whole sentence changes its meaning ;)

  23. DC says:

    Bartek –

    Just so I understand from your first post: the 3rd party is the child? or the other biological parent?

    You’re not fond of marches, so “but fighting for gay rights should take on a different form.” What form is that?

    I also am not so crazy about the in-your-face form of protesting (like aggressive sexuality in public) because I think it does more harm than good. And it seems a bit hypocritical – you have to tolerate me, but I don’t have to respect your public sensibilities. Many gay people would disagree with me.

  24. guest says:

    “Kuba – By your definition, straight people who don’t intend to have children cannot get married?”

    ———–

    Straight people can CHANGE their intentions ANY TIME and HAVE children.

    How many times do i have to repeat the word “potentially” or “theoretically” ? Is it really so difficult to understand ?

  25. kuba says:

    DC,

    Legal definition of Marriage:
    MARRIAGE – A contract made in due form of law, by which a
    free man and a free woman reciprocally engage to live with
    each other during their joint lives, in the union which ought
    to exist between husband and wife. By the terms freeman and
    free woman in this definition are meant, not only that they are
    free and not slaves, but also that they are clear of all bars to a lawful marriage.


    Catholic Church Definition:
    Marriage, as instituted by God, is a faithful, exclusive, lifelong union of a man and a woman joined in an intimate community of life and love. They commit themselves completely to each other and to the wondrous responsibility of bringing children into the world and caring for them. The call to marriage is woven deeply into the human spirit. Man and woman are equal. However, as created, they are different from but made for each other. This complementarity, including sexual difference, draws them together in a mutually loving union that should be always open to the procreation of children

  26. Bartek says:

    3rd is in my example a child, but it can be any other person involved in the relationship between gays in way which can be harmful.

    those can be marches but without obscene demonstrating orientation – they can write petitions, raise social awareness, etc., but rather in a manner which would show they’re like other people and not stand out, in fact I think many gays behave in a very usual way what makes them unrecognisable – the stance they present during marches (two men licking each other in the middle of the street) only entrenches stereotypes…

  27. DC says:

    Guest –

    I didn’t realize you spoke for other people on the blog. Repeat it as many times as you like.

  28. DC says:

    Bartek –

    Thanks. Again, so I better understand you, and perhaps I’m reading in a bit to your statement. Is it that gay people should not be around children at all, or they just should not raise children. And is it flat out a bad idea, or is it just too risky trying to tell those who would harm children apart from those who would be positive influences?

  29. DC says:

    Scatts –

    I don’t think it’s so hard to “argue otherwise.” You kind of make it sound like the only reason to get married is to *cough* get at something you ain’t got. (Your wife doesn’t read this, right? heh heh) What about the L word? Ok, the other L word. Isn’t it all about love?

    Forget sex. For whatever reason the way I am wired, I don’t feel capable of establishing the same kind of deep, loving relationship with a woman as I have with my partner.

  30. Ania says:

    ‘Is it that gay people should not be around children at all,’

    whoa, hold your horses, DC, it’s you who are going up stream here, so don’t get too self-righteous. We’ve just discussed that people who are homosexual but chaste are just as good Catholics as other, for example. Extrapolate here.

    One thing that is not going to change is that homosexuals are a minority, and norm is set by the majority, not the minority. I’m the farthest from saying something like ‘so it doesn’t matter what two people say’. As a human you have the right to do good and bad things alike. Or believe or not believe. But there are other people involved, and rearranging marriage to include just any kind or romance, means changing the world for majority of the people on Earth. That’s wrong.

    Marriage is a deal that we strike with a person to breed and raise children, to create a home etc. It does not mean falling in love. It’s about social life, economical life etc, and there ‘should’ be love.
    And if you can quote one partnership that is lesbian – that’s not the norm, but an exception.

    And I want to reiterate what I once said here, before appearing to go soft – I wouldn’t want my friends to inform me of what or who they like. I don’t share that kind of relationship with them. (Although one did. He wants to be bather in a pool of food. Not my cup of tea. Bowl of soup?). Also, bringing the sex topic up for fame and politics is earning money with your sexuality – prostitution.

  31. Bartek says:

    DC – either you didn’t understand me correctly or I laid it out imprecisely. It has nothing to do with gays keeping company with children. If homosexual couple bring up a child it somehow influences its psyche – that’s a direct contact with children, not occasional, so they simply shouldn’t raise children. I wouldn’t link homosexuality with any perversion, so if anybody would say so there’s a certain rate of pedophiles between gays, comparable to the one among straight people.

  32. DC says:

    Bartek –

    Thanks for taking that seriously. I think I got it now. I guess I just disagree, probably because of my own personal experiences (or rather of those close to me in my personal life.) I wonder if each of us will feel the same way 20 years from now?

    Cheers.

  33. Ewa says:

    I don’t think this ‘against nature’ argument really holds water. I mean, something like in vitro fertilisation is directly meddling with nature and “God’s will”, but it’s considered an infertile couple’s right and no one raises an eyebrow.

    Also, marriage is no longer necessary for procreation: it’s not that unusual in Poland for unmarried couples to have children and there are plenty of single parent families around. And likewise, lack of ability or intent to procreate is no bar to marriage; certainly not by the state and even by the Catholic church – I’ve been to a (Catholic) wedding of a pair of 60-year olds (a widow & widower) who clearly weren’t going to start a family.

    So what exactly is the objection to gay/lesbian adoption? That it shouldn’t be allowed because it’s going to offend the majority? It seems hardly enough of a reason to me.

  34. Kiki says:

    C – by the “artificial body” I meant a gay marriage, a union completely artificial to nature , that cannot produce their own offspring and therefore cannot reproduce itself.
    It is purely a union of two people of the same sex, made for their own pleasure and serving this purpose alone.

    I am not against gay marriages, but I really do object for them to adopt children.

    Scatts – we may have adapted to McDonalds and credit cards ( why not ? ), but it doesn’t mean we have to adapt to adopting children by
    homosexuals!
    That is a totally different platform, and it’s playing with human lives,
    children’s lives , and in consequence with sociaties lives and I do believe the western sociaties will regret this in the nearest future.
    I wouldn’t like to see transsexual , confused children, abused children , with broken identities, with broken characters as a result of an upbringing in those artificial gay unions. And then becoming same broken adults …

    Just commone sense nothing else.
    There is NO need for that other than selfish gays’ needs.

  35. DC says:

    Ania:

    Irreconcilable differences: I want to hear all about the soup.

    Seriously though, you and I probably agree on personal responsibility and the need to act in a moral way, but maybe not much else.

    Marriage without love just seems pointless to me. Economic reasons to marry seem like from another century, and no longer necessary. I do agree that two parents are probably better than one for raising children, but perhaps we each know of disasters in both cases. There are no guarantees.

    The thing I just don’t understand is how gay marriage would change things for everyone else? I’m not trying to be smart with you or “self-righteous” – I just don’t get it. And I speak of state marriage, not church marriage. Just being a minority practice, or change in itself being bad, is not convincing to me.

  36. Kiki says:

    Ewa- gays adopting children , it IS against nature, absolutely.

    Their wish to raise a child, as I mentioned, is nothing else but a gay couple’s pure pleasure and it is to fullfil their needs, not the child’s needs.
    Can you or anybody forsee long term consequences of such an upbringing ?
    Children would be brought in a believe that the homosexual couple is natural and normal, and this is how it should be.
    And it is NOT!
    There is homosexual pairs even within animals, but that is the samll percantage, that’s the abnormality not a norm!

    Same here, gays are a certain percantage within the huma population,
    but that is not the norm.
    The nature has given us a possibility to survive , to maitain the human race, and in order to do it , we need a female and a male – there is no
    such a thing as a gay procreation.
    Why change it , when it’s been working perfectly well for centuries ?
    Because some people think they can do , what by nature they are unable to ??
    Think about children first , not selfish couples.

    And the last argument – the biggest paradox to me.
    The gay couple want to adopt children , cos they want to create a family, a product that consists of male & female.
    Don’t you see that something is really wrong here ?

  37. Ania says:

    DC – I in turn don’t understand taking the word ‘marriage’ from what it denotes now and changing it. There are all kinds of partnerships among people, and I like to call them love affairs, romances, being together. I’s been 8 years with Luke together, and I understand fully when you’re talking about a great relationship. But I do not call it marriage. I haven’t taken that commitment as of yet.

    I can’t remember the documentary about children in council estates, aired in Britain 2-3 years ago. In the end the conclusion was: the children were poor, neglected, from broken families, and somehow they were happy, but the only wish that they truly had was that Mom and Dad would marry. It’s just in our nature.

  38. DC says:

    Ania –

    How do you feel about “civil unions” or the like? For our purposes, since they vary, lets say they grant all of the same legal protections and benefits as marriages, and have nothing to do with the church.

  39. steven says:

    I could care less if queens and carpet munchers want to get married and pretend to be normal. But what I do not want is a gay man to be my childrens high school gymnastics or wrestling coach for example. And I would not feel too safe and secure in knowing that gay people are defending me in a war.

  40. Ania says:

    Any person already has the right to enter any kind of agreement in Poland, regardless of how I feel about it. Excludes human trafficking, killing, hitting, stealing and the like. So no need to fight for this right.

    Benefits like tax reliefs are given for a specific purpose and upon meeting requirements, that’s what’s called benefits. Such as: being a marriage capable of bearing children. They are not a human right. They are how state chooses to support what it sees as most beneficial. Tax reliefs for marriages, free education for youngsters etc. Again, I’m not eligible for that kind of assistance.

  41. DC says:

    What about legal protection, for example the ability to make medical decisions for a partner in an emergency?

  42. Ania says:

    You can also legally give that power over yourself to someone. It probably requires to be certified by a notariusz (solicitor?). As I mentioned above, put a note in your wallet for the med crew. The difference I suppose is that it doesn’t come in a package and is not widely recognized. But you can have the elements, except the final one of course.
    I suppose that’s fair – you are choosing an alternate path, so you should build it yourself.
    Law in Poland is based on Ius Romana, true, but I’m not sure if everyone knows that it’s based on expressions of will. Declarations. Ius Romana: You can do whatever you want, it’s just that some things are illegal or wrong and have a prescribed price tag. And there’s also the Revolution: everyone deserves a choice and a chance. Brought to you humbly by Peter’s little fishing association.

    It seems that law in Poland is very good, only nobody knows it.

    But if you would like to offer romances and affairs the same status as a marriage, it will not happen. Can’t give a blessing to everything, only to the best thing.

  43. DC says:

    It’s not only unfair, but inefficient. For anyone to exercise any right, there needs to be a legal basis but also at least as important awareness and sometimes even enforcement. Papers can be lost, especially in emergencies. Maybe that scenario for gay people pleases you?

    And I am not choosing anything – being gay is who I am. Or are you suggesting I go marry a woman …heh heh.

    Please cite a basis for “Can’t give a blessing to everything, only to the best thing.” And I’m not seeking your or anyone else’s blessing – just equal rights before the law.

    Your “Let them eat cake” approach to decent treatment of people not in your idea of the majority is positively energizing. Much remains to be done. Are you planning to protest at Europride 2010 in Warsaw?

  44. Karolina says:

    In one way I think adoption rights for gay couples are almost ludicrously unthinkable, when the possibility of marriage or even social acceptance is still so far off. I don’t think we’ll be able to talk about it with any real hope in our minds for years yet.

    As far as raising normal, well-adjusted children goes, I didn’t think we had hit on a foolproof recipe for that. There are certainly children raised in male/female, traditional families who become lost, miserable adults. There are, I emphatically assure you with firsthand knowledge here, full grown, mentally and emotionally healthy people who have been raised by parents of the same sex. I know we are not looking for individual cases here, but I’d just like to mention that I’ve seen this with my own two eyes. It seems to me like a very telling thing that, apparently without any solid basis at all, some of us here are leaping to the conclusion that same sex parents will create a broken half-person. I do think such a child’s life will be difficult in Poland, but not necessarily through any fault of their parents’.

    How do you guys feel about the marriage/civil union laws concerning immigration/emigration and citizenship? Not that there are TOO many foreigners looking to set up house in Poland, but I think it is a valid issue in our brave new world.

    As far as the legal definition of marriage being between “a man and a woman” goes, I think we are putting the cart before the horse. Do we know this definition to be morally right? Do we follow it simply because it is a definition written in stone? Who wrote this definition and when and what propriety does this person have over our lives?

    PS: Reading further in the legal definition of marriage:

    “The civil effects of marriage are the following: … It vests in the husband all the personal property of the wife, that which is in possession absolutely, and choses in action, upon the condition that he shall reduce them to possession; it also vests in the husband right to manage the real estate of the wife, and enjoy the profits arising from it during their joint lives, and after her death, an estate by the curtesy when a child has been born… It gives the husband marital authority over the person of his wife… In general, the wife follows the condition of her husband.” LULZ.

  45. Ania says:

    DC,
    oh, so you really want the full rights of a woman? As soon as you grow a womb, you can have them.

    Enforcement? Yeah, we’ve already noticed that gays want to be put above other people. If someone calls them ‘poofs’ or looks at them in a bad way, they will be sent to Guantanamo, right?
    Since you found all my examples of things that you are free to do so hurting, then it shows clearly that you are not interested in freedom but oppression of other people. That will show the world a real ‘loving’ relationship. Together with abortion and euthanasia.

    If you don’t need a blessing, then you don’t need a source, certainly?

    Karolina: ‘Do we know this definition to be morally right? Do we follow it simply because it is a definition written in stone?’

    Er, no. As Scatts have already observed, it’s set in the piping. Look under your skirt and see for yourself.

  46. Ewa says:

    I just came across a relevant article on The Huffington Post:

    http://tinyurl.com/mzhtyq

    it seems that there has been much research into the long term consequences of children being brought up by same sex parents – and they overwhelmingly show that they do just as well as those of heterosexual parents.

  47. Scatts says:

    In some ways it would be fair to assume that children of same-sex partnerships would do better than others because the parents would be trying that little bit harder to prove everyone wrong. I’m sure it is the same for gay as it is for straight couples, there are good parents and there are bad ones. Nothing to do with the sexual orientation.

    A concern might be that a gay couple adopting a child would somehow ‘encourage’ or ‘teach’ a child to become gay themselves. It would be good to see some stats on this. The gay people I know would, I’m sure, give the child enough education and freedom to find their own way although the influence of being brought up by a gay couple is impossible to deny. Still, if the question of whether you’re gay or straight is genetic, inborn, then it shouldn’t really matter one way or the other, should it?

    As for gays not being allowed to marry/adopt because they cannot conceive. It was in the news this week that artificial sperm have been created so for lesbians at least this is soon to be a problem solved. Gay men are unlikely to ever overcome the physical barriers. Even if eggs could be ‘grown’ there’s nothing they can do with them.

    I suppose another way to look at it is to ask whether the children being adopted are going to live a better life with the gay couple or being left where they are? If you have a loving, sane and secure gay home willing to sacrifice their time, energy, emotions and money to raise an unfortunate child – wouldn’t it be un-Christian to deny the child the chance of a happy life just because the foster parents are gay? Would Jesus have been so lacking in compassion, I wonder?

  48. Hugo says:

    I added this comment to the original article:

    “I know a Pole who also finds it “icky”, then she met a lesbian couple who are expecting twins, after speaking with them, seeing how normal it is and how decent they are, now she’s says it’s okay for women but not men, pffft, I give her a few years to stew on it and she’ll come around to see that it does not matter whether it is man-man or woman-woman or man-woman.
    Too bad she’ll remain bigoted for all that time. Poland as a country will grow up some day too.
    There are a lot of children waiting for adoption, there are not enough families who want to adopt so if a couple wants to give those children that are rejected by society a loving home then we should be thanking them! (whether such a couple is same sex or not should not matter)”

    Growing up and living in a country that is secular, open and humane (in general ;) ) I find it abhorrent to read some of the comments. Especially Ania’s murderers comment, in my country there has been an incident (murder) with a Polish youth and as a consequence the general public did (does) not see Poles as “upstanding” citizens, if due to this there were studies that showed that a significant portion of children of those Polish couples were criminal would Ania be okay with my country passing laws to forbid Polish couples from having children?

  49. Ania says:

    Hugo, you are trying to twist it but you are doing it ham handed.
    So who or what is there to prohibit you from using your own fertility? Hm? Is there a ban in place on finding a gaydad or a surogate mom?

    Or are you saying that all the comments I’ve made showing you how much freedoms you have are actually murderous? Then you do not want freedom.

    What has being gay to do with being a national of some country? Slippery ground here, Hugo, watch out.

    In general what is happening right now has happened before. A group of 200 gay activists would like to change the laws of 38, potentially 56 million people in their favour. Also put themselves above the law, get tax breaks, special protection. Gay activists, if they are not met with applause and adoration are offended with ‘bigotism’. But being normal is not the same as being a bigot.

    The same hype happened with the One and Only Party – it wanted to be loved. Whoever did not applause on Party meetings was persecuted and killed. Early communists, late communists, nazis, bolsheviks – all of them.

  50. kuba says:

    Tail wagging the dog again. The minority is trying to change laws that the majority do not want.

  51. Ewa says:

    Ania/Kuba – I still don’t understand: how would the majority heterosexual Polish population be disadvantaged by the granting of the legal right of gay couples to marry or adopt children? If it’s a legal right then by definition it can’t be above the law, surely? Or are you talking about a different kind of law?

  52. kuba says:

    Ewa,

    I agree gays should have the same rights as heteros and I think they do already, the laws do not discriminate based on life style. They want marriage. By the church’s definition which I agree with it is wrong. So they can get a certificate in court and be united but there is no way they can procreate. As far as adopting. No father in one situation and no mother in the other may not be good. But only time will tell how those children turn out.
    I think having both a mother and father is necessary.

  53. Ania says:

    Ewa: because it’s not about granting equal rights, as we all have equal rights already. A change means that somebody will have different rights than equal. Better protection for gays means worse protection for others.

    If they want to change the definition of a marriage, then why not change the definition of theft? ‘It’s not bad if it was a gay person who took it, and gay persons should enjoy protection of the state when they are helping themselves to something’.

    Adoptions: each person should ask themselves what would it feel like to be given to ‘superior’ gays to play family with you? Sold to be somebody’s gayby?

  54. Karolina says:

    Ania: Er, no. As Scatts have already observed, it’s set in the piping. Look under your skirt and see for yourself.

    You are now saying that a person’s sexual organs are the deciding factor in allowing them to form a legal bond with another person. We are not talking about what religion tells us is “natural”, we are not talking about potentially making children for the state – we are talking about legal recognition of a couple’s intention to stay together indefinitely, and a certain measure of safety provided by the state. Read further in the legal definition of marriage to see where making laws according to “piping” gets us.

    At the bottom line of all of this lies the fact that you are grossed out by two men or two women being together sexually, and by “you” I mean you and I also mean us, the country of Poland. I am sure you know a straight married couple does not have to have vaginal sex to be married and that their sex life is their own business. Yet this issue continues to be about “piping” and what is “natural”. I once again say that Poland is a culturally Catholic country and this informs its laws tremendously. Secularism is coming from the west,and because Polish culture is so tied to its religion, these secular attitudes are seen as threatening to the identity of Poland and no wonder. But if Polish identity is this bigoted, paranoid celebration of the “norm”, I guess maybe it’s just not for me personally.

  55. Nikodem says:

    I wonder how Polygamy is viewed in Poland?

  56. Ania says:

    I’ve just found something hilarious and in topic:
    no male prostitutes are to be had. JKM explains: zero supply means zero demand. There must be not that many gays around to create demand.

    http://korwin-mikke.blog.onet.pl/Rozwazania-z-polskich-drog,2,ID384628052,n

  57. Pawel says:

    As a gay Pole, and a gay Polandian, AND a gay rights activist I have many gay friends. Those who are hetero, are far from being heteronormative.

    (Good job Scatts with asking this question. Surveys I went through clearly show a corelation between the number of people saying they know someone gay and the number of people accepting various gay rights; also those who know a gay person are more likely to “give” LGBTQ’s rights)

    I have to say I really hate participating in basic discussions like this one. I tend to lose my patience easily. So I don’t usually get involved and leave the front-line discussions with those who have little or no knowledge on the subject, or are homophobic and know it, or are homophobic and don’t know it:) – to thers. Quite frankly I’d rather read Judith Butler:>

    So I’m sorry I only got through the first half of the comments. I was most surprised with Bartek. The young urban “liberal” professional. I’m worried about young specialists, like him, leaving universities with littile or no contact with critical theories (not to mention gender studies or queer theory). Which could give them another perspective. And different sensitivity.
    But could I be surprised that the current system reproduces itself?

    And there is my comment to Mr Zdzisław from Bremen. Since elites are not raising their awareness, how do you expect it to get down through to the general public through media and cultural/ideological products. Accepting gay rights is not a fashion. It didn’t come from nowhere. (As Mr Zdzisław seems to believe).
    (If it is a fashion, when will gays go out of fashion? let’s cut gays heads in the next season? LOL)

    Just to complete Scatts questions. Do I accept gay marriage and adoption? Of course I do. But I think it is not the time to save daisies when forrests are burning. For me adoption or marriage are non-issues. It totally doesn’t matter to me right now, in times when so much needs to be done in raising people’s awareness, in changing every element of the system. The whole system needs to change in many ways to prevent discrimination. Currently gay pupils are bullied, gay children thrown out of their homes, gay people are getting attacked physically and verbally everyday. Etc. etc. etc.

    In my opinion no one is seriously worried about gay parents “turning” their children gay. Well for once, me and most gay people were raised in “normal” “heterosexual” “ordinary” families:) The underlying fear is a fear for the male and female roles. Current system reproduces a world where men and women have clear place. It is a code we all know, and know how to move in it. Gay people raising children is feared to be another step (and rightly so) in the abolishment of the male and female role. Which is in fact a fear for masculinity, and the preservation of the priviledged position of the heterosexual male:) Because in effect not only the position of heterosexual males would change, but the maledom would disappear in its current form:D This panic reaction to gay marriage is in fact a fear of a new and uknkown situation, a fear of a world where current stereotypes and rules we were raised in don’t matter any more.

    And speaking of the gay marches. I think there is still not enough people attending them. Why? Because gay people are as unaware and pseudo-“liberal” as the rest of the society. And beause they are still too afraid. And because, as most people in Poland they don’t associate and concentrate only on their little world: work, friends, home, money etc. Only when the majority is faced with a well organised and massive revolt it can change. Would the whites “give” the rights to blacks if they didn’t revolt? Or to the gays in the West?
    Polish LGBTQs need to get off the couch and act! Do gay marches increase homophobia? I doubt it. I’d blame the media, church, politics and culture (encompassing the previous three). But has it increased though? Do you have a data of previous polls?

    Are there “gay” “media” in Poland? Depends what you call gay and what you call media. There are “media for gays” and “media for lesbians”. Popular online websites, like innastrona.pl, homiki.pl or gejowo.pl. There are gay magazines, and event guides.
    The only broadsheet that is not homophobic is Gazeta Wyborcza, but only for last couple of years. Previously they were Bartek’s kind of “liberal”. Other two major broadsheets are openly homophobic: “Dziennik” and “Rzeczpospolita”. Among popular weeklies only “Przekroj” is genuinely aware; “Polityka” is uneven. “Wprost” and “Newsweek” are both on the pseudo-“liberal” side if now right wing. Popular media are intellectually shallow.

    The only “media” that are run by people who are actually competent in the gay rights agenda is the “Krytyka Polityczna” quaterly, and some online university periodicals like “Inter Alia” or “Recykling Idei”, which are being read by small groups.

    I’ll just address random issues here:

    —> Bartek: What would happen if your supposedly gay friend actually made that pass? Wouldn’t you be happy someone fancies you?

    —> Ania: Gay and politicking? Of course I am! Politics is getting your interests realised in a democratic process, no? Or: Everything is politics. You keep your right wingy anti-gay rights politicking (you are politicking too you see) and I’ll keep mine. But does a better protection for gay people mean worse protection for others? I applaud the logic. :>

    —> I don’t remember who said it, that gay people already have equal rights. Equal rights my ass. You can walk the street withut being afraid of being attacked or harassed for your orientation. You can apply for whichever work you want. You will not be bullied at school. You will have political representation in the parliament. Etc. etc.
    I don’t have any of these.
    I could go deeper into issues like the definition of “osoba najbliższa” in the criminal code, which has serious implications on the lives of gay and lesbian people. Osoba najbliższa (osoba pozostająca we wspólnym pożyciu) has a status similar to a spouse in criminal procedures. Many gays and lesbians are now denied the “osoba najbliższa” status as it’s currently up for court’s interpretation whether it includes same sex couples or not. Osoba najbliższa has the right to not testify. And some crimes that were commited by osoba najblizsza are not investigated without that persons request. (Which means basically if my boyfriend steals my mobile phone, or hits me, he will be brought to the court even if I don’t want that. If he were a woman, it would be investigated only if I request so). There are tens of examples like this one.

  58. steven says:

    I think bi sexual people are just plain greedy ,)

  59. I was going to join in the Parada Równości along with my beloved pet donkey which satisfies me whenever my sister’s having her period. But I thought better of it.*

    Your point being?

    My point being that Poles don’t like having other people’s sexuality thrust down their throat (as it were). Do whatever it is you wish to do in the privacy of your mieszkanko, but PLEASE don’t take it into the streets.

    (* For the record: IRONY. I have neither donkey nor sister)

  60. island1 says:

    Michael: Surely you mean that Poles don’t like being exposed (are there no verbs that aren’t double-entendres in this context!) to forms of sexuality they have been taught are unacceptable. They don’t mind being exposed to other people’s heterosexuality. Heterosexual images are everywhere and public snogging between men and women turns not a hair – in fact it was loudly demanded at every Polish wedding I’ve been to.

    The point about gay pride marches and the like, as I understand it, is to demonstrate firstly that gay people are just the same people you walk past in the street everyday, and secondly that they are pissed off. Ordinary people do not risk attack and humiliation by going on these demonstrations just so they can embarrass you by making you think about gay sex, they do it because they are angry about what they perceive as injustices. When thousands of people are motivated to publicly stand up and state they are gay in a society where this can have serious consequences I’m inclined to believe they are doing it for a damn good reason and not just because they are exhibitionists.

    I think it’s very difficult for a straight person to understand what these grievances are and probably impossible to completely empathize with them, but the strength of feeling these movements exhibit makes it equally impossible for me to conclude that they aren’t a real source of suffering.

    For me this is the crux of the issue. We can argue traditional morality, divine will, or biological plumbing until we’re blue in the face and it won’t make the slightest difference to the fact that there a large number of people out there suffering very real emotional distress.

    The good news is that the eventual acceptance of gay rights is inevitable (and by ‘rights’ I mean whatever it is that the majority of gay people feel they need to be full and fulfilled members of society, however logical those things may or may not be). It’s inevitable because people are bloody-minded creatures and when you have enough of them all wanting something that’s really important to them they usually end up getting it. Freedom from Soviet oppression springs to mind.

    I, for one, would prefer the period of bad news to be as short as possible.

  61. DC says:

    Michael – If later in life you eventually ever feel like speaking out, however modestly, against things like violence directed specifically at gay people, we’ll be just a bit closer to the day when marching is not necessary.

    Island – Skillfully and kindly written. Thanks.

  62. DC – I’m absolutely against violence against any human being on the grounds of race, gender orientation, religious beliefs. I am intolerant of intolerance of any kind.

    But flauntism is not the way to build tolerance in society.

  63. Pawel says:

    Island,

    Thanks for taking time to answer. You should join an LGBTQ organisation, you have skills! ;)

    Michael,

    You read too much Rzeczpospolita. This is not flauntism. This is visibility. And a festival. We’re here, we’re queer – get used to it. But it’s also a great opportunity to meet the activists and people you have talked to and worked through the year. It also sends a message to all those young people out there, living in small villages and towns, who have no one to talk to, who are confused and scared. That there is nothing in fact wrong with them. To break through with some postitive figures: you can be gay and lesbian AND be happy, succesful.

    Saying that sexuality is a private matter is hypocritical. Of course it blooody isn’t. Everyone is interested with other people’s lives: who are they with, do they have kids. An innocent chat on what were you doing last weekend is about sexuality: should a gay person say the went to the seaside with their boyfriend, or invent a lie?
    Every politician is bragging about their wife/husband and kids in election leaflets. Is that not sexuality?

    If you ask gay people to be quiet about being gay, you make us constantly think about what to say and not to say. And many people do lead a life of secret. Another form of oppression.

    How an educated person cannot see a connection between likening a group to animals and violence is beyond me. Kto sieje wiatr ten zbiera burzę.

    If you are against the violence based on sexual orientation, you should know that there are currently no policies preventing it in Poland right now. (Even those Poland is obliged to have such effective olicies by the EU law. It is the obligation of the state to build tolerance, to educate in schools and through social campaigns). As there are no laws aggreviating the responsibility for sexual orientation-based violence.

    How would you campaign for changes in law and minds? How would you pressurise the govt and public? How would you intend to organise a community?

    Michael, after what you wrote I have more understanding of why you thought Britain was in decay.

  64. Pawel says:

    And back to Scatts’s questions. I realised I based my reply on media on the comments rather than your question, and you asked about something else:)

    Gay issues have a constant media coverage and every daily has at least two gay issues stories, but from a different angle of course. Homoseksualność seems to be the new “it” after solidarność, that everyone is talking about;)
    (Although most people still use the word “homoseksualizm”, abolished in English language long time ago)
    Most of the media, unsurprisingly, are flattering the tastes of the current viewers, and fitting to their editors awareness, and their policies towards gay issues are far from openness.
    On many occasions they present gay activists and neo-nazis as two legitimate opposite sides of the argument. That would so not happen when they would be talking about jews.

  65. DC says:

    Michael – Glad to hear that, when prompted, you are opposed to such violence. Now I can think of marching as one giant prompt for the remainder of people who at first write about donkeys or other ugliness and stay silent on violence and other intolerance.

  66. Ania says:

    Jews and gays, sigh…
    So tell me what nationality or race has to do with it? You’re building a new nation? Gay race? Gay planet even? Something like Amazons and their Queen Hippolita? There is a gay planet in literature already: Ethan of Athos, by Bujold. Sweet guy.

  67. lol rolf says:

    GOD WILL PUNISH THE GAY ABOMINATIONS

  68. Pioro-Boncza says:

    I had a friend that was abandoned as a 3 year old child and then raised by “hetero” adoptive parents who abused him so much physically, mentally, and sexually until he left and lived with friends of ours for several years until ultimately committing suicide.

    Most homosexual people that I know or have met that would be serious about adopting a child are quite serious people. Well educated, relative high earners, and career oriented.

    Every person I believe has a primordial need to pass on his know-how, experience, morals, etc. to a next of kin regardless if gay or not. For gays, the only way to do so is through adoption.

    Although I consider myself quite liberal I do agree that a part of me feels that the healthiest solution is to have one male and one female parent. But long as there are abandoned children growing up in state care and in need of a home I think homosexuals should have the right to adopt. Two parents of the same sex are better than none…

  69. Pawel says:

    Ania,

    Didn’t I just say what is common between Jews and gays? Neonazis. Who are not treated as legitimate oponents of the Jews by the mainstream media of Poland in 2000s. But are treated as legitimete opponents of the gays by the same media.

    What is the difference between skin colour, race and sexual orientation? No difference. All these are inborn characteristics, of which a person has no control. Characteristics which don’t say anything about other qualities of that person.

    lol rolf,
    GOD? SHE MADE ME GAY! PUNISH HER

  70. Bartek says:

    Paweł – what’s so surprising in my views? I’m not a professional yet, accidentally I’ve just left university, not for good, but it doesn’t matter in that context. All my views about homosexuality were shaped by my observation of reality, or through some reading. Little is taught about those issue in schools, regardless of their degree – do you think some lectures in “gender studies” should be included in the curriculum of economic studies? I think on the earlier stages. My liceum once organised a meeting with Robert Biedroń that was on Ash Wednesday just before my matura under the “tolerance days” and after strong objections raised by a priest and religion teacher, the meeting didn’t take place – Warsaw’s Liceum im. Tadeusza Reytana was at the time notorious for that event all across Poland. That’s in my opinion the correct age for speaking about sexuality and more complex aspects of that topic.

    “Polityka” is rather pro than uneven, but that’s my private opinion, moreover gays have “Gazeta Wyborcza” taking their side many times.

    What if he made a pass. Firstly I’d talk to him stating firmly I wouldn’t have it. In such situation it’s best to give it straight – you’re homosexual, I accept, we can be friends, but I’ll never be your partner and don’t try to resort to tricks like groping etc. If the gay has sound mind, they’ll understand it, if not and such incidents would occur more often, then it would be the time to loosen the relationship.

    And, if you find it of note I’ll tell you more – a woman could also intently make a pass on me against my will and I wouldn’t have to be satisfied with taking her fancy in such way – so it doesn’t depend only on sex…

    Flauntism unfortunately is an element of gay parades, is it insensitivity to someone else’s rights? I can understand someone has a gold BMW, but I don’t have to put up with them driving eighty kmph up and down my street just to show off – with that showing off is the hitch!

    I incline towards Michael’s point, but I wouldn’t compare homosexuality with incest, but maybe I lack proper education in this respect…

  71. Pawel says:

    Bartek,

    I said “surprising” while I should’ve said “worrying”. Because as you rightly point your views aren’t surprising:)

    Should gender studies be introduced in university curricula? I think gender studies would be too narrow. I’d love to see interdisciplinary courses in critical theory:) which can be applied to any field. Especially economics and management.

    About the pass. I see it’s all serious stuff with you, you do sound like an SGH student;) We must have different definitions of “making a pass” or I don’t know what:)

    I think I remember that Reytan thing. Is it when Kuba Janiszewski of TOK FM came out live on air talking to this school’s headteacher?:)

    Polityka may be “pro gay” but just as the older generatio of the left wingers thay don’t know much about the subject…

    I just wonder how, through observing the reality, did you come to the conclusion that gay parents raising a child would do them harm?

    And the flauntism argument again. Lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and queer people are different. Come in all possible varities. And have right to be different. Gay Pride Parades are to make you straighties accustomed and bored with it:)

  72. Paweł – I am actually in favour of same-sex civil partnerships from the legal point of view (inheritance etc), and I’m definitely against intolerance, discrimination or aggressive behaviour against homosexuals.

    However, I do believe – and I think a large majority of Poles do (certainly everyone where I work when the issue is discussed) – that sexuality is a very private matter. Many people feel uncomfortable discussing it even with their closest friends, let alone flaunting it (whatever their orientation). I feel uncomfortable seeing a hetrosexual couple kissing passionately in public, for example. Keep it to yourselves!

    I don’t believe those tub-thumpers who say ‘homosexuality can be cured’ – I’d say it’s mainly genetic. Studies into womb testosterone levels, birth order etc, seem to indicate this more and more clearly. It is wrong to persecute someone over which they have no control.

    I have two male Polish friends who I’ve long suspected of being gay; their personal answer in both cases was to marry a rather masculine- looking woman, in both cases they fathered a couple of children.

    A very Polish compromise, I think.

    BTW, I read Gazeta Wyborcza daily.

  73. Pioro-Boncza says:

    Just an observation and correct me if I am wrong here – but many posters in the last article regarding the Polish countryside strongly argued that it is a Poles freedom to build a house in any shape, form, or color on his plot of land no matter how ugly it may be or what little sense it may have in a greater plan of coherence for the Wies. I assume it would also apply to all the kids who feel the need to tear up the countryside with their ATV and Motocross.

    My point is: Why wouldnt that same approach to freedom apply to Gay Parades and Gay lifestyles in Poland? To me that annoying kid on the motocross making noise for the whole wies, scaring the animals and destroying nature is much more of a threat or annoyance than two men kissing in public.

    If you want freedom you cant have it both ways. You have to accept everything or accept that all aspects of life could or should have limits.

    Comments anyone?

  74. guest says:

    “If you want freedom you cant have it both ways.You have to accept everything or accept that all aspects of life could or should have limits.”
    ————————————————————

    And in Poland there IS freedom both ways. In Poland you can live as a gay without any problems. There will be of course people who wil rant about gays, just like you rant about ugly houses. But both is allowed at the end of the day.

    Marriage and adoption is a different story. It is like building a house without any permission.

  75. guest says:

    BTW:

    Kodeks karny nakazywał ścigać homoseksualistów jeszcze w dwudziestoleciu międzywojennym, a przełom w tej sprawie nastąpił wraz z wielkimi kodyfikacjami okresu II Rzeczypospolitej z lat 30.

    -W Niemczech paragraf przeciwko homoseksualistom zniesiono w 1969 -W Szkocji homoseksualizm był przestępstwem do 1980 r.
    -W Irlandii aż do 1982 r. za homoseksualizm groziło nawet dożywotnie więzienie.
    -W Rosji – do 1990 r.

    http://psr.racjonalista.pl/kk.php/s,2089#_f1

  76. Bartek says:

    Paweł – as you’ve rightly written, there don’t have to be the courses in gender studies or sth similar in SGH, as a student you also should know that teaching critical approach towards surrounding world is not an upside of Polish universities. My school isn’t much different in this respect, if the lecturers try to drum into students’ heads “what I say is right and don’t dare to challenge it” and if majority of students for many reasons, mostly because of laziness and their own convenience, go along with it. That’s where it hurts me and beats me that just a handful of students try to explore the topics and really study, the rest take the line of least resistance and when taking an exam they write what their professor said, no matter how preposterous it is, that’s easier, I’ll write what they want and get five. And it does stretch onto another realms of life and perception of reality – people follow the crowd cause it’s convenient.

    If you want to find out more about Dni Tolerancji tap into Google the phrase, you might add “Biedroń”, “Reytan”, I won’t give you any link, just not to distort your view. Yes, the principal had an interview about in TOK FM.

    Much of the elder left-wing politicians indeed are a bit unfamiliar with the topic, their support for homosexuals might be a bit unreflective – they sympathise with you cause it fit the trend of leftism. If anybody can let them gain support of the relatively vast group of voters (quite frequently well-educated).

    Harm doesn’t necessarily have to be done by parents, many gay families can give their children more love (not link it with pedophilia!), care, attention than pathological heterosexual family with seven children when father drinks and beats up mother… But put it into a broader perspective – all the children have mother and father and another one for no apparent reason has parents of the same sex. How should you explain it, how would you later on explain it how it came to the world, that’s why I’d go for avoiding such distressing and socially embarrassing situations…

    Straight Bartek would get used to the presence of gays without those parades, in fact seen only in TV.

    Sexuality is indeed a private matter but when it comes to the personal life of a certain person, I would like to discuss with my friends how many partners I’ve had, which positions we tried, etc. It’s not the thing which needs to be unveiled. But… human sexuality as a general phenomenon should not be a taboo topic and should be taught, only in that way we can avoid unwanted pregnancies, multi-child families. If teenagers received proper education (not the one given by nuns) I tend to say there’d be less unwanted pregnancies, some of the teenagers would put off their often premature first intercourse and wait for the right moment…

  77. Pawel says:

    Pioro-Boncza

    Good point!

    Bartek & Michael,

    It seems that we got to where the difference between us is coming… You seem to joing being gay with sex. I think it’s wrong. You’re gay all the time, not just when you’re kissing someone, hugging or giving blowjobs:P You’re gay all the time. Gay at the morning, gay at dinner, gay in the evening. Being gay is an IDENTITY.

    You can’t flaunt your identity. It’s just who you are.

    And as you talked about sexuaity. Sexuality is not about sex. No one will make you listen to stories of sexual practices be it gay or straight. Sexuality is not private. With whom you date? With whom you do shopping? If you do it with your boyfriend/girlfriend you talk about your sexuality.

    PS. The Reytan story was long time ago. I could tell you about other occasions from the life of my organisation:D

  78. Pawel says:

    guest,

    “In Poland you can live as a gay without any problems.”

    You are wrong.

  79. Ania says:

    Pióro-Bończa
    ‘many posters in the last article regarding the Polish countryside strongly argued that it is a Poles freedom to build a house in any shape, form, or color on his plot of land no matter how ugly it may be’

    actually the majority has agreed on planning and ugliness. The rant quickly went to details such as fucking Poles, fucking nobles and fucking peasants.

  80. guest says:

    Pawel i am not wrong. And you know it.

    There are problems for gays, fat people, blacks, disabled, mohair-catholics, legia warszawa fans, arka gdynia fans, red haired people, midgets and many other groups. But these problems are not created by the Polish law or the Polish state. These problems are created by some ignorant/idiots, and if they hurt you then you can call the police.

    You can get a normal job as a gay, you can open a gay bar, you can open a gay newspaper, you can have sex with an other man and just live your life.

  81. Michael: Surely you mean that Poles don’t like being exposed to forms of sexuality they have been taught are unacceptable.

    Wrote Island 1.

    No – I genuinely think that Poles are different from Brits in the respect – and thanks Bartek for the example – in that they do feel awkward about talking openly about sex (positions, partners etc) with friends, colleagues, spouses even, compared to (OK) middle class Brits.

    Having spent 16 years in the UK workplace and 12 years in the Polish one, I can tell you that the smutty chat in the UK outstrips anything you’ll hear in Poland. Poles are more reserved when it comes to these matters.

    Can you imagine this on Polish TV?

    (Big Train, BBC, 1998)

  82. basia says:

    As always, thoughtful posts and points of view.

    I had a gay friend that came out to me when I was 17 (some 25 years ago). We were both away for the summer and wrote letters to each other. I was a very inexperienced and naive 17 year old. Kathy, on the other hand, wasn’t shy or inexperienced. Her overt sexuality and experimentation was light years ahead of my own (and most everyone else’s I knew at the time).

    Her sexuality made me uncomfortable but intrigued me as well.
    At 17, I was obsessing about getting up the nerve to talk to a boy I liked.
    At 17, Kathy was having wild sex with a married black man twice her age. Jaw dropping stuff back then. When she “came out” to me later that summer, I wasn’t surprised or shocked. I remember feeling rather honoured that she could entrust something so personal to me.

    High school wasn’t very kind to Kathy. Kids can be cruel and Kathy didn’t have many friends. I still feel ashamed that I didn’t do more to help her through such a tough time. I had a chance to “step up” but unfortunately, I chose the safer, more passive path.

    Things have obviously changed in our schools with the passage of time and being openly gay isn’t as rare as it used to be. (Note: our city’s school board has an alternative high school that is exclusively for gay kids. It allows them to be gay (and safe) within a community of other gay kids. Great idea as far as I’m concerned). Things aren’t perfect, but they’re getting better.

    Back to Scatt’s questions. Gay marriage? I’m for it. Canada was the fourth country in the world to legalize same-sex marriage in 2005. But Poland isn’t Canada. Our young nation is a country made up of immigrants. We’re a country made up of diverse people, cultures, religions and languages. That diversity leads us to be more tolerant generally. It doesn’t make us superior in any way. We’re just used to rubbing shoulders with people that don’t always look the same, believe in the same God or have different traditions/cultures. We don’t have a 1000 year tradition of anything or rich history (which is too bad). We’re kinda making it up as we go along. So far, we’re not screwing it up too badly.
    Adoption: I’m okay with it as well I think. I perceive this as more of a male issue, as women can more easily have biological children through artificial insemination. In my heart of hearts, I believe a child would be better off having a mother and a father, but the world is full of single parent families who seem to be doing a fine job. Two loving parents have to be better than one.

    Gay pride parades? Can’t say I’m a big fan of all the overt sexuality. This applies to hetero sex as well. I guess I’m just a prude at heart. I’m more comfortable with sex in the bedroom between consenting adults and not in the streets.

  83. DC says:

    What about the political aspect of marches? Do you think they are effective in bringing about social change? For example, could the alternative school have come to being without having had marches in Canada?

    If you think marches are effective in swaying public opinion, would they be more effective if they were ‘toned-down’ somehow?

  84. Ania says:

    DC, you can start a private school in PL, you won’t have to pay taxes. If there is enough gays in Poland to keep you going.
    As Basia and Bartek observed, I would advertise this school for children of the far left or ultra-liberals, rather than a school of sex. (yup, we’re going to end up with this assumption).
    An the same as with religious schools, if it is good quality, average parents will want to sign up – like for Jewish and Methodists schools.

  85. Pioro-Boncza says:

    “actually the majority has agreed on planning and ugliness. The rant quickly went to details such as fucking Poles, fucking nobles and fucking peasants.”

    Ania we should improvise your post and combine the two issues so it should read:

    “…The rant quickly went to details such as gays fucking Poles, gays fucking nobles and gays fucking peasants.”

    far more interesting, dont you think? :^)))

  86. Pawel says:

    Pioro-Boncza,

    :>

    Michael Dembinski,

    Oh you soooo generalise:) You’re just surrounded all the time by the “liberals”:> No wonder, as you said, everyone in your office has the same opinion on homosexuality as you do (which I thought was a lame argument, most of my friends have similar opinion to mine – so what?)

    I know many people who talk and make fun of sex any time. I guess it depends how stiff people in your office are. (not in the biblical sense):>

  87. Ania says:

    I see the witch hunt has already started:
    http://mamproces.pl/

  88. Basia says:

    Gay teachers in the classroom: I thought I would share our family’s experience. My eldest son had a gay male teacher in the 3rd grade. It was a great experience. Firstly, my husband and I were really excited for our son to have a male teacher in elementary school. Female teachers make up the vast majority in our elementary schools and as the parents of boys, we welcomed the opportunity for our son to be exposed to a male style of teaching and perspective. Mr. Mac is probably the best teacher in the school. Every parent I have ever spoken to wanted their child placed in his class. He is simply a great teacher. His sexuality was never an issue. On “Family Day” celebrations, he would be accompanied by his partner and mingled openly with all other families. The kids never gave it a second thought.

    School sponsored discussions about sex are introduced in the 5th grade here. The “basics” will likely be introduced at that time. Topics about sexual identity will likely be introduced in middle school (grades 6 – 8). When the time comes that we discuss sexual identity with our son, I’m glad that we will be able to draw on a very positive experience that he can directly relate to. Hopefully, it will make the issue less threatening for him and he will approach it with an open mind and heart.

  89. Pawel says:

    Ania,

    Are you sure to call that Joanna Najfeld character a witch?:)
    Should a defamation go unpunished? She makes certain accusations, which the accused say aren’t true. The court will rule, we will see. No?

  90. steven says:

    How did the little 3rd grader know his teacher was gay? Why do gay people insist on the whole world knowing? Why must I explain to my little 7 year old son what gay is? And what does marching up and down the Polish streets demonstrating and offending a 99% catholic country hope to accomplish? You were all much better off in the closet, quit pushing your issues down the throats of people that would rather not know what you do in the bedroom, and maybe you won,t have such a hard time working and functioning. Or is it that you really like all the drama??

  91. Basia says:

    steven:
    My son had no idea his teacher was gay. I brought up the issue because many parents seem so threatened by the impact a gay teacher may have on their children. He was a great male teacher. kropka. His sexual identity had absolutely no relevance in the classroom.

  92. kuba says:

    Basia,

    And rightly so. He is there to teach a subject not display his sexual preference. I see not problem with that kind of teacher.
    But there are those with a different agenda, like most things in life.

  93. steven says:

    OK Basia, How did you know the teacher was gay? And if he was not gay, but had a strange sexual attraction to sheep would that also be of no concern to you as long as he was a great teacher? Why does the world need to know what people do in the bedroom? Why do gay people need to protest?

  94. Pawel says:

    steven,

    you questions have already been answered here.

    I will not comment on your ridiculous outburst comparing gay people with zoophilia.

  95. steven says:

    The point is Pawel, When you apply for a job in Poland or America, no one is asked what they do in the bedroom. It is always after the gay person gets the job that they feel the need to let everyone one know what makes them happy in the bedroom. Then they are always shocked and outraged at the resulting rejections that come from thier own big mouths. If my son,s teacher were gay, that would be ok with me, as long as I did not have to know about it. Parading his boyfriend around on school family day was a mistake. Don,t ask, don,t tell is a very good policy, for both gays and those of us that don,t want to know what you do after school.

  96. Pawel says:

    steven, we are getting t the bottom of this. what has showing up with a boyfriend got to do with sex? for goodness sake he that didn’t have sex with him the middle of the family day buffet:P

    what you propose for me and people like me is a living in a lie.

    Teacher A: what were you doing on Saturday?
    Teacher B: I went to Sopot with my b…. I went to Sopot with a fr…. I stayed in and watched tv.

  97. steven says:

    Well Pawel, since you asked,… It is sort of like talking about your underwear. I might enjoy wearing my wife,s silk pink panties to work. I have every right to do this. But the moment I confess this at work, I have crossed the line. Why do we need to know these things? Like the US Airforce pilot that was just fired after 18 years of service recently. This guy is gay, and a great Airforce pilot. He was doing just fine until he opened his big mouth and told the world he is gay. What does his sex life have to do with flying an f16? Nothing, so why open his big mouth and talk about it? Now he is fired and lost his pension. Don,t ask, Don,t tell. …. It,s really that simple. No one needed to know, he chose to open a big can of worms, thinking that Obama would save his job, he was wrong. I have every right to wear my wife,s pink panties to work, but I have no right to talk about it to my co workers, most gay people do not get this, and it is very sad……

  98. Pawel says:

    Steven,

    What is sad is that you want to direct lives of gay people just to avoid the need to be tolerant. And it should be the opposite. You should be tolerant and don’t mind whether someone is gay, bi, queer or straight.

    And as you know, with some people, regardless if they want or not you can tell they are gay. So you’re whole “don’t ask don’t tell construct” falls apart.

    * * *

    BTW. There’s a piece on homophobia in Poland on today’s BBC Radio 4’s World at One (on the occasion of the alliance of Tories and Law and Justice). Did you hear that? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ljnb6 starts around 19:00 mins

  99. steven says:

    It is not that we do not tolerate gay people in the military, we do not tolerate people talking about thier gayness in the military. I think it is not too much to ask people that work in our schools and military to keep thier preferences as far as sex is concerned to themselves. Since the birth of Christ, gayness has never been more tolerated than now. Why push ? Why not pull ?

  100. kuba says:

    Amen Steven, could not agree more. Seems they are trying to create a separate class for them selves.

  101. DC says:

    Steven –

    It sounds almost certain that you are talking about LTC Victor Fehrenbach, so let’s get some facts straight. The source of the problem is not that he “opened his big mouth.” He attempted to keep his private life private, just as you advocate. It doesn’t work. Someone informed his superiors. (New York Times, et al. 2nd last paragraph here):

    http://preview.tinyurl.com/nure5b

    Lt Col Fehrenbach was notified about the beginning of his investigation back in May of 2008. He STILL kept his mouth shut, until about a year later. For the details and his reasoning, and a story of this man’s honorable career (including recognition for heroism) see:

    It’s just bad policy (and bad economics) to get rid of such a highly skilled serviceman. But wait, the insanity doesn’t stop there. Here’s another guy who tried to keep his mouth shut:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14052513/

    The US military has voluntarily shed itself of 59 Arabic and 9 Farsi linguists because of don’t ask/don’t tell. We Americans are not exactly famous for our foreign language skills in general. Ask ANYONE (maybe a Polish soldier?) who has deployed and they will tell you how precious, scarce, and life-saving these language skills are. Not only does “don’t ask/don’t tell” not work, it is reckless.

    Speaking generally now, not just about sexual orientation, when people try to conceal things they slip up, however briefly. It’s just a matter of time and someone observant enough to notice. Policy based on asking someone to lie is just not sound. It puts people’s careers and well-being at risk by someone looking for such lies and who has an axe to grind.

    I worked for (not enlisted in) the US military for years. I know first-hand that there are many gay servicemen. Why? Because communication is not limited to the verbal, no matter how hard we try to conceal it. It’s just that if you want something not to be true, you’re probably less likely to notice it.

  102. DC says:

    Another angle for those who think of these issues as liberal encroachment upon conservative values. 460 of the Fortune 500*
    companies have included gays in their non-discrimination policies. There is no legal requirement to do this.

    So why do they? Because businesses make more money when their employees get along with each other (not always the same thing as like or admire each other.) Apparently big business sees this as an effective way to try to harmonize the work force. Even Wal-Mart, famous for squeezing blood from a turnip, is on board.

    True they probably get a bit of good publicity for a brief time, but most of the public probably forgets about this pretty quickly.

    * – (sorry, US data from 2005 and I couldn’t find comparable metric for Europe)

  103. kuba says:

    If they can do the work that is what a corporation needs. Regardless of all the other factors. Most corporations evaluate personnel on how they perform on the job.

  104. Ania says:

    Paweł: ‘You should be tolerant and don’t mind whether someone is gay, bi, queer or straight. ‘

    To tolerate is to bear with it somehow. To never mind would be to either ignore or accept. Another example of lefties changing the meaning of words to play with minds. Then goes ‘marriage’, then probably ‘man’, ‘woman’, ‘child’, ‘love’. Anything to suit your current wishes better.

    I wonder if firing gays from the army is a Western attitude towards sex or just Army distrust towards Lefties? Do people get fired from the Wojsko Polskie? I know that my sister’s teacher did not get fired, even though everyone knew that the best way to get a good grade was to come in a mini skirt to class.

  105. DC says:

    Ania –

    Being gay does not automatically mean leftist views.

    And I don’t think the opposition to gays in the military can be defined as a Western attitude toward sex, since gays can serve openly in the militaries of the UK, Australia, Israel, the Netherlands and others. I found it interesting that Russia established it’s ban in 2003.

  106. DC says:

    I meant to say “….Western attitude toward sex or sexuality”

  107. Pawel says:

    I already said what I thought. Further discussion is meaningless, I won’t change my mind, and neither will you.

    I’m not getting anything from this discussion. Like Ania, whom I’d really advise to read something written from a left wing perspective, than just follow neo-fascist Internet fora. Maybe then we’d have something to talk about?

    Have a nice weekend everyone, regardless of your sexual orientation or gender identity.

  108. steven says:

    I had a boss that was gay I think. Everyone just knew. Like Pawel said before, with some guys you can just tell. The thing is, I really, really liked this boss, he took the time to develop me, and promoted me, and taught me how to lead and motivate a team. What I admired the most about him was his professionalizm. He applied the don,t ask don,t tell policy to us straighties as you call us Pawel, also. That is to say he did not put up with any talk of wife,s, girlfriend,s, or even kids at work. We just do not reveal our sexual orientation at work. And I liked it. If you are out dating a co/worker or talking to friends from work, fine, but he did not want to ever hear us discussing anything but earning profit for the company at work. I like it, don,t ask, don,t tell, that goes for us straighties too. Fair is fair.

  109. steven says:

    DC, I,m sorry but if someone informed his superiors, than that someone knew he was gay, and therefore his private life was not kept private enough. I wouldn,t be suprized if it was a bitter ex that he had dumped that made the call to his boss. Very sad, but he knew the rules when he signed up to join the US Airforce.

    Scatts< Pawel is right, we have ground this down to dust. What else have you got? You have a talent for stirring it up, can,t wait for the next piece….

  110. Ania says:

    Ania comes from a leftist family, with a Mother from ZMS, so knows quite a bit about how the Left and Liberals party. I’ve found Fronda quite refreshing and novel only this year. I’m amazed at the whole new world – all that havoc I can wreak on forums, hehe. I plan on buying a beret, but can’t decide on the colour.

    You go Scott!

  111. Scatts says:

    Steven, I lost track of this comment thread some time ago but I’ll do my best to come up with something new! :)

  112. Scatts says:

    Two views on a relevant article from this weekend:

    The Church must begin to think in terms of the “sacrament of relationships” rather than the sacrament of marriage, the head of a leading Catholic marriage agency has said.

    http://www.indcatholicnews.com/news.php?viewStory=14623

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000547.shtml

  113. Pawel says:

    Ania,

    Yess…. the unique freshness of Fronda… may only be compared to novelty and freshness of pickled shrimp.

    Having mother at ZMS doesn’t mean you’re up to day with leftist thinkers of 20th century. I’d reccomend John Storey’s “Cultural Theory And Popular Culture” for starters.

  114. Sylwia says:

    I think that in the argument between Island and Michael both are right, and wrong a bit, lol. Poles are fine with sexuality, on the cultural level, perhaps, even more than Brits. However, Poles draw the line just before the intimate level. So you can be exposed to anonymous sex everywhere around, but your own sex is private. People can make it out in the street, but the normal thing to do is to look away, while parades assume watching. There are things that to Poles are normal while to Brits are licentious, and then there are some that are funny to Brits and vulgar to Poles.

    I’m not going to discuss what’s normal or not. That’s moot. What I’m going to say is that gays won’t get any rights here unless they change their ways. Pawel says that protests won them (and other people) rights in the past, but where? Seriously, did ever any manifestation against the Polish nation bring any good to anyone?

    I think I remember some polls some years ago that were ca 60%. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was even less some 20 years ago. Just like the opposition to abortion steadily grows in spite, or to spite, the feminists.

    Marches, activists – to Poles you just behave like communists, so that’s how they see you. Keep offending the people’s beliefs, calling them ‘backward’, and repeating all those slogans about liberals and European kind of thinking, and see where we are in 20 years from now.

    Solidarność won thanks to strikes, but those were 38 million people against a minority, and not the other way around. How can one grow up in this country and not know that Poles always strike back when they are attacked? Poles don’t have to change, so they won’t. They might do it out of good will, but you don’t leave them room for that.

    It’s quite naïve to expect that RC will change its politics. It doesn’t pay. The Churches in the West that showed relaxed attitudes lost out. People want the Church to be an alternative, and Poles will be even harder on you if you force them to defend the Church. Why should they site against their own convictions in support of something they don’t even care about?

    Drop the word ‘marriage’. To Poles ‘marriage’ is synonymous with ‘matrimony’. Civil union is quite likely in my opinion, providing people behave reasonably. But not if you bring adoption in the same breath.

    Adoption is an entirely different issue, and not only in reference to gays. There’s no such a problem like a shortage of married couples wanting to adopt kids. On the contrary, it’s very difficult to be allowed to adopt, even if you’re in a heterosexual Catholic marriage and both you and your spouse earn a lot of money. The government in Poland has quite a lot to say in reference to kids. No home schooling here or other such things. Parents don’t get to decide about everything, and the government thinks it might be better for the kid to stay in an orphanage.

    Even if the general attitude to gays changes there still will remain the attitude to families, and then homosexual women will have much more chances than men. The Polish family is the most matriarchal institution in the world, and 99% of judges in the family courts are women anyway. If a biological father cannot be granted the care of his kids, even if the mother is irresponsible, don’t expect that two unrelated men will.

    It really makes no sense to bring Western practices here. In the past women in the West weren’t allowed to raise their kids in case of divorce. Children belonged to fathers. There was no such an issue here. Kids are the domain of Mother Pole, and women won’t give up their rights lightly.

    Sylwia, wondering if the Brits who want to marry a Pole ever wondered how it is to get divorced here. :P

  115. Pawel says:

    Sylvia,

    Finally something interesting. I wouldn’t agree with anything you say but it’s interesting:)

    The way you put homosexuality and the Polish Nation as opposites… could Agnieszka Graff be right in her “Rykoszetem: rzecz o płci i narodzie”?… I am the Polish Nation too, just as you are. How could I oppose myself?:P I oppose stupid ideas some of my compatriots have. Right-wingness and petit-bourgeois are not genetically Polish.

    You then go comparing (again – intertesting) homosexuality to communism. I am sure you would be able to explain how you draw the connection…

    But if your logic is
    1. Poles reject communism (A # B)
    2. Poles reject homosexuality (A # C)
    3. Then B = C? Homosexuality equals communism?:)

    Then it’s kinda weak.

    Especially that communism is an ideology and practice, while homosexuality is a persons quality:) So it’s like comparing apples to VCRs.

    And if you think that communism was did not have ANY support among the Poles you are wrong. Many people did support it. People are not all the same. Within my family there were hard-commies and anti-communists arguing on every imieniny. My grandmother still keeps her communist medals, even though she doesn’t get a bonus pension for them any more;)

  116. Sylwia says:

    Sorry, Pawel. You didn’t understand a word.

    I didn’t put homosexuality and the Polish nation as opposites. You do. If you go on demonstrating against them, you put them at the opposite side whether they wish it or not.

    I didn’t compare homosexuality to communism. I compared your campaigning methods, that happen to be similar. Haven’t you ever seen communist parades?

    No, not everyone was against communism, but 90% of Poles were. Gay adoption is opposed by 87%, and you think you’ll win by offending them. I just meant to point out to the lack of logic, but I’m sure you know better.

  117. Pawel says:

    Sylvia,

    OMG I would LOVE to see Stalin in drag, Brezhnev and Honecker kissing and waving rainbow flags… effeminate miners and farmers holding hands:) Rosa Luxembours with moustache… That would be so fun to watch such a communist parade! :) You right-wingers sometimes do have the funniest ideas!

    Sylvia darling, I’ve never seen any gay activist claim they are against the Polish nation. It is people like you, who claim that being gay, or having certain politicical ideas – excludes from being Polish. It is you, who says gay rights are against the Polish nation. I told you: WE ARE POLISH NATION. Whether you like it or not. You are gainst the rights of a part of Polish Nation.
    And I think you are wrong. I think Polish nation and gay rights merge quite well. And that in 30 years people like you, just like conservatives in the UK or Sweden, will understand that.

  118. Sylwia says:

    Pawel, first of all, as a fellow Pole, do me the favour and spell my name properly. Second, don’t call me a right-winger, since I haven’t even commented on my political views or my opinions in reference to homosexuality or gay relationship. I don’t call you anything. Third, don’t darling me.

    Can you see the difference between one’s being gay, hetero or whatever, and one’s way of campaigning? Do you really think that if you’re gay anything you do is above critique, or is there a slight possibility that even gays can do things that are seen by others as an attack, without reasons linked to sexuality? Or perhaps I imagined the respective 75% and 87% against you, and, as you say, I am wrong, and the Polish nation and gay rights merge quite well?

    You are not the Polish nation. You are only a small percent of it, and unless you campaign in a way that shows respect to the majority you’re going to alienate them. It’s not a matter of any objective truth or justice, these are just simple mechanics in democracy. You may be 100% right and still a loser.

    That’s what I’m saying, and I don’t think it requires a huge intellectual effort to understand the point. You don’t have to agree with the people, but you need their votes.

    All I told you is that Poles see parades as a thing against them because they have had bad experiences. Somehow feminists have as bad results, and they like parades as much. On the other hand, Polish women were granted equal rights without any parades at all – luckily for us our contemporary feminists weren’t yet born.

    What the UK conservatives have to do with it? How many of them have reasons to link parades to communism? And how many churchgoers are there in the Church of England? 5%? Do you really think it likely that over 50% of Poles will stop going to Church if you keep blaming it? Or can you admit the possibility that the longer you blame it the lesser your chances will be?

    I may be wrong in my assessment of the causes of your bad results, but that they are extremely bad is a fact. During the last 8 years people’s support for gay marriages fell from 24% to 14%, and their support for gay adoption fell from 8% to 5%. Their opposition grew from 69% against gay marriage to 75%, and from 84% against gay adoption to 87%.

    http://kobiety-kobietom.com/naszasprawa/art.php?art=11

    You can either look for causes, analyse them and improve your methods, or get offended at anyone who dares to say that something must be wrong, keep stomping your foot, and hope that you’ll succeed if you cry loud and long enough.

    I didn’t say that gay activists claim that they are against the Polish nation, only that from the point of view of the majority of Poles it looks like they are. To which you accused me of being against gays and went on offending me, all the time claiming that you don’t offend anyone. Bravo! One would assume that with the overwhelmingly bad results you already have you’d care not to make even more enemies.

  119. Sylwia says:

    Pawel: “OMG I would LOVE to see Stalin in drag, Brezhnev and Honecker kissing and waving rainbow flags… effeminate miners and farmers holding hands:) Rosa Luxembours with moustache… That would be so fun to watch such a communist parade! :)”

    You’re welcome:
    http://sylwiaofwarsaw.wordpress.com/2009/07/27/men-kissing-in-polish-history/

  120. […] 27, 2009 I was arguing (unsuccessfuly) that Pride Parades aren’t the best idea for promoting gay community in…. It doesn’t matter that they work just fine in other countries. In Poland parades are linked […]

  121. aika says:

    “Actually, I have a question of my own to our resident gay experts – why is it neccessary to say “gay & lesbian”?”

    I tried to scan a very long discussion under this post to check if someone tried to reply. Sorry if the answer skipped my attention.

    As a Polish native speaker I can reply, that the word “gay” is used in Polish strictly as a noun. A masculine noun. Therefore using it to describe a woman is unnatural (although sometimes something like that is done, mostly in case of names of professions, e.g. pani doktor – madame doctor). Polish speaking person would tend to create a feminine version of the word “gay” – but e.g “gejówka” lacks respect and “geini” sounds weird and sophisticated (which I state on the basis of my being Polish native). Using the word “lesbijka” (feminine noun) is easier.

    In Polish “homosexual” is a more universal word, as it may have a form of an adjective (homoseksualny/a/ni/ne) and nouns (homoseksualista/tka).

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